The point is that @playingwithknives arch nemesis will be PM, and the world will end.
So that’s your rebuttal to his statement about US corruption in government and the military?
Yeah, not my best work, but I’m sticking to it.
I really can’t be bothered to reply further to @playingwithknives.
Besides, he seems easy to distract and quick to get off topic.
I really came off like I was taking a shot but that wasn’t really the intent. Sorry if I sounded rude, that’s what I get for posting when I first wake up. It was more of a prompt for “You clearly disagree, I’d like to hear your viewpoint / read links you might provide”.
While I don’t think I have quite the dramatic take that @playingwithknives has, I think I agree with the general point that U.S. institutions, including the military, are showing signs of weakening and rot. That’s how I “feel” anyway, which is why I was interested in a counterpoint. Maybe I’m completely wrong, I’m certainly no expert on the subject. :)
Anyway, Happy Friday! Hope you have a fantastic weekend, and again I apologize if I sounded rude or snide.
@KevinC, you did not come off as that rude. In fact, my original comment was by any measure, the rude one and deserved a rebuke for being completely off topic.
Much as yourself, I too was tired when I posted that, but I feel like deleting my comment would have been disingenuous of me. I was very rude to @playingwithknives as well. I apologise.
Anyway, it sucks that are Navy is having issues. I feel like our top brass, much like the leadership in aspect of the US, be it government, corporate or social, is really letting us down. I can only do one thing at this time, and that is to blame all Baby Boomers (except those that I don’t) on everything bad in the world.
And of course, thoughts and prayers.
I think it’s fair to say that many aspects of our institutions that we once took for granted are eroding. We can argue about the causes or the extent, but the basic evidence is pretty clear. The essential “civic virtue” that the Republic requires to function seems to be ebbing away, replaced by a patchwork of extreme ideologies, blatant self-interest, and resigned apathy, in many parts of the public sphere.
It’s particularly noticeable and worrying in the military. For over two centuries, the US has been pretty much immune from the sorts of problems posed by renegade military establishments, problems that have plagued many nations including some democracies (France and the Algerian crisis comes to mind). Now, though, we actually have to be worried about things as diverse as politically active officers, open discussions of potential disobedience, ongoing and severe corruption, rank incompetence, and the toleration and even encouragement of recruiting practices that have resulted in some serious personnel issues across the board.
Any one of these things could be serious, but taken as a whole, it points to some critical problems of leadership, as well as some deep confusion (at best) or dissatisfaction (at worst) with the basic tenets of how a military organization functions within a democratic state.
Maybe it’s a rebellion against the greater scrutiny we hold everyone up to. People have always done shady things. But now everyone’s private lives are visible for everyone to see. The military didn’t just suddenly become bad yesterday.
While in general I think your point has some merit–after all, our capacity for surveillance and our appetite for around the clock information has escalated dramatically over time–I think you’re off base here. I would argue that, yes, the US military did in fact “become bad” only in the past few decades. Or at least, become bad again; admittedly, during the sixties and early seventies things got pretty wretched with the tail end of the draftee military.
People in the services though have always been under a microscope. Officers in particular, and that’s really what we’re talking about here, have never been allowed much privacy or freedom from scrutiny. And especially in the officer ranks, no one goes into the military expecting anything but constant observation, rating, and evaluation. The services are huge organizations devoted to constant assessment and evaluation of themselves, almost as a key part of their very structure. Officers’ private lives were never private. There were different social codes, that determined what was said about whom and to whom it was said–you would never, for instance, gossip about a fellow officer’s affairs, perhaps, but his peers would sometimes intervene privately to adjudicate the situation, sometimes physically–but secrets were nearly impossible to keep in ships, on bases, or whatever.
And you have to keep in mind I think that the military reflects society. You get the army you deserve, pretty much. So, yes, as the people in the military come from a society where everything is the Truman Show, where reality TV is the new journalism, and where social media impels you to broadcast everything you do from eating to defecating, there certainly is a different mindset among people going into the services, and it’s a mindset definitely at odds with the requirements of the military–discretion, uniformity, obedience, things like that. But I’m not convinced the relative gap between being a civilian and being in the military is any wider now than it was in earlier days.
Besides, it’s a volunteer military. If people are joining up and then getting pissed that they have to, you know, do stuff they didn’t want to do, perhaps our recruiting strategies need work.
I dunno. There were plenty of whore houses in WWII France after liberation, and even in Hawaii during the war. Probably even plenty of brothels inside the US in the 19th century in the border regions being pacified.
Of course. Not at all the same thing. Enlisted personnel blowing off steam is a hallowed tradition that goes back probably to the Sumerians or something. And around military bases in peacetime, and all over the rear areas in wartime, stuff like that has always been tolerated more or less. None of that caused or was related to selling out to contractors, or a foreign power, or treating your service like a stint at a brokerage house where your job is to line your pockets with as much of Uncle Sam’s money as possible. And none of that relates to how people viewed being in the service or the role of the military.
No one is saying “oh noes, they aren’t saints!” Some of us are questioning whether the fundamental philosophical basis of the military in a free society has been undermined by things like corporatism.
TLDR: it was a clusterfuck.
Yeah, the doublespeak is strong these days, ain’t it? Now, undoubtedly, there are some aspects of missions that shouldn’t be bandied about in the press, sure. But when there is emerging over the last few years a narrative that is really negative about US military personnel, leadership, and operations, the more you obfuscate, the worse it looks.
I expect things to be foggy in these kinds of things, but the stuff that we do know shows non-stop stupidity and ineptitude.
Worse, in my opinion it shows a definite lack of responsibility, leadership, and courage at the top. Shit flows downhill in more ways than one.
Haha. “Fictitious foe”.
They should stop those expensive and provocative wargames.
As someone who has played in way too many of these war games, mainly in Korea, I have to ask why should they end them? Nothing is more effective at training for wartime actions like these are. In Korea about one week a month we had an exercise. People can make mistakes, get used to chem gear, and work with multiple other agencies to practice what will happen in a real war. Not to mention all the combat stuff.
Sure are enemies don’t like it, but they are doing their own antagonizing and just use the games as something to complain about. NK is constantly pulling crap that doesn’t make the news here according to unclassified briefings I went to.
Now this elephant walk (which I was there for) seemed like a real waste of money. They worked the crews to death for that picture, and must have spent a ton on fuel and parts for that picture. I was told by a mechanic, that half of those planes still couldn’t fly. It does make for an impressive picture show of power.
I’m pretty sure his response was sarcasm. Trump used the “provocative” verbage following his meeting with KJU. Bonus points because this story was about wargames in Ukraine days before Trump meets with Putin.
Yes, Rich was being sarcastic. :)
It is pretty rich. I do wonder, though, whether there isn’t a degree of confusion and FUD going on within the military right now. On the one hand you have the professionals who are trying their best to keep doing the stuff they need to do, and are following along on paths laid down over the years before Trump (and which I’m sure Trump is unaware as he’s unaware of nearly everything), but on the other, you have a commander in chief who is unstable, oscillates back and forth on a lot of issues, and can’t seem to decide who our enemies are and who are friends are. Naturally the military has to and should do what they are ordered to do, but if those orders are conflicting and often at odds with established policy and experience, it can’t be helpful.