The Vorkosigan Saga, by Lois McMaster Bujold

“Oh!” Miles came awake. SPOILER was by now fully dressed, including boots, and checking her stunner in its holster. “Yes. Gotta get dressed, sure. She won’t mind the beard, though.”
“Not being subject to beard burn,” *SPOILER muttered under her breath, scratching a thigh absently. Miles suppressed a grin; one of her eyelids shivered at him.

That’s just what I happened to read right now, which made me think of it. The Sharing Knife is the book I hold as the main evidence for that.

She gives enough relevant detail that you could read any given story or book without the context of the others, and they definitely resolve their given plots in the frame of the book. But it’s not purely episodic in the sense of something like Star Trek, where there is no meaningful advancement of characters or much reference to past events.

Also, as far as I know the main books with Miles as a protagonist are all in the same order whether you go by internal chronology or publishing order. It’s only tricky when you get into surrounding material like the two novels about his mother (the first of which was written prior to the start of the Miles series, though not published until later, and the second of which was written later), Ethan of Athos (which involves an important character in Miles’ life, operating solo on his orders, though she’s not the protagonist), Falling Free (set in the same universe but predating everything else by a good couple centuries and not terribly relevant to Miles’ doings), etc. Also, the shorter stories/novellas skip around some.

I’m not asserting that Sturgeon’s Law applies more to romance than to other genres. Though it might, for all I know.

All I’m saying is that the portrayal I objected to of the Ghost series is bullshit. There are a billion and one legitimate criticisms and excoriations of the series (starting with the fact that he’s not a good writer, moving on to the fact that of all the female characters there’s, like, one who’s not completely offensive, the physical impossibilities, the… oh, fuck it, I could go on forever). There’s no need to harp on that one.

You said: “Most romance is more like Wuthering Heights; entirely lacking in any major themes other than insipid relationships and tepid, badly-described sex.”

If that isn’t you trying to depict the entire genre as crap and Ghost as superior in contrast, I don’t know what is. Which is obvious bullshit, given that I can easily think of half a dozen romance novels[1] off the top of my head that don’t fit your characterization of the genre–and I don’t even read much romance!

And I’m mocking John Ringo for comparing himself to “that guy…Catcher in the Rye, what was his name?”. For having the singular courage to write stories about men who get off on hurting women. If I wanted to mock his writing…well, I’d have to read more than two pages of Ghost to do that, and I’d rather spork out my eyeballs.

[1] The three Bujolds I named above, Pride and Prejudice (and the rest of Austen), Czerneda’s A Thousand Words for Stranger, and Bull’s War for the Oaks.

What was “that one” again? I traced this sub-thread back through replies, and I can’t figure out what you’re arguing about now.

Sturgeon’s Law does, in fact, rule that most romance is crap. Are you arguing that Sturgeon’s Law doesn’t apply to romance?

And I’m mocking John Ringo for comparing himself to “that guy…Catcher in the Rye, what was his name?”. For having the singular courage to write stories about men who get off on hurting women.

First, Ringo has a pretty well-developed sense of humor, and has pretty often excoriated his own work, so I have a hard time taking that seriously. Second, the fact that BDSM is cast in our society as “men who get off on hurting women” is something which is pretty annoying, and here you are on Qt3 perpetuating that bullshit.

[1] The three Bujolds I named above, Pride and Prejudice (and the rest of Austen), Czerneda’s A Thousand Words for Stranger, and Bull’s War for the Oaks.

I don’t consider either Komarr (an investigative thriller) or the prequel book (Space Opera / Space Politics) as romance, just as I don’t consider the Honor Harrington novels to be romance novels even when there are in fact romances in them (Paul Tankersley and White Haven).

People have a tendency, when talking about the Ghost series, to spend a large amount of time on the main character’s sexual sadism.

You seem to be saying his sexual sadism is just fine, nothing to criticize there. Ewww.

You have a problem with consensual BDSM, then?

-Edit- This is rather off-topic, so I’d be happy to have this discussion in P&R; I’m going to stop derailing this thread on a fantastic author’s work.

Sounds good to me.

Aaanyway.

I’m totally psyched for the Ivan book. Ivan’s been a character I’ve wanted to see more of ever since Cetaganda, and if anything he, not Miles, was the biggest hero of A Civil Campaign.

(Except for Cordelia, but that’s just cheating.)

I want to see more of Ivan and I want to see more of … what was his name? The Vor Lord who got a sex change to prevent his brother from getting the seat. Presumably married to Olivia now.

Damn, you weren’t kidding. And in 503 words no less.

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

What got me the most was the implied stories he never got a chance to tell. Especially about his brother.

I did actually tear up at the end of Cryoburn reading those scenes. It felt… very real, in a way that most authors can’t invoke.

END SPOILERS

That’d be the former Lady Donna Vorrutyer, now Dono Vorrutyer.

For the record, Cordelia is 33 during Shards of Honour and Aral is “forty plus”: http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/24-CryoburnCD/CryoburnCD/Novels/Cordelia’s%20Honor/0671578286___4.htm


SPOILERS FOR CRYBOBURN!!!!






























It's an extremely well set up ending. The whole book is about death, families 
without fathers, and how people and a culture at large react in the resulting 
vacuum. While the book itself may not have pit Miles against stakes high 
enough to reach the same level of drama reached in other books, in some ways 
I feel as though the whole book was leading up to that ending, because she 
couldn't quite figure out how to have a book [I]about[/I] the death.

I particularly loved Cordelia's aftermath, with the reference to Dubauer - the 
ensign that she saved the life of despite having had his mind destroyed. Has 
she grown and changed since then? I know Cordelia isn't really the main 
character of the series, but she is certainly complex enough to feel strong 
emotions for.

I was also reminded of the "Aftermaths" chapter in that original Cordelia book, 
which featured a seemingly unrelated anecdote about a woman who had 
given up her life to find her lost dead daughter. Thematically related, and 
very similar to the aftermaths in this book.

It was a really wonderful ending.

Whoah, just found this topic. Nice to see; the Vorkosigan books are among my favorites. I don’t think Cryoburn is a good place to start if you’re new to the Vorkosigan Saga, but it’s definitely a welcome entry in the series if you’re already immersed in the universe.

Another nice thing about Baen’s e-books – I was actually able to read Cryoburn as an ARC (advanced reader’s copy) which I bought off the Baen website about 3 months before the book’s official publication, and read on my Kindle.

My intro to Miles was seeing a copy of Mirror Dance with a recommendation from one of the workers below it on the shelves at Powell’s books in Portland. Once I read that, I immediately went back and picked up all the prior books in the series.

I’m just glad she came back to the series. I’ve picked up most of her fantasy stuff, but I have yet to get more than a few chapters into either series. It just hasn’t engaged me at all, which is surprising given that the Miles books are among my favorites.

Personally, I thought it was tacked on. It wouldn’t be horrible in a continuing series of the type where the author is already working on the next book chronologically – things like this were sometimes tacked on in the O’Brian Aubrey & Maturin series. But when the author is not even intending to write the “next book” at all right now, it’s pretty weak, since it has nothing to do with the story.

Except what happens in the spoiler ties into the pervasive theme of the entire book…

I guess I liked this latest book so little I didn’t care about the theme.

BSDM is a broad category, and covers many interactions of which “men who get off on hurting women” is a fairly small slice. I said “men who get off on hurting women” because that is exactly and precisely what Ringo was talking about at the time.

And I am mocking Ringo for stating that writing fiction about men who get off on hurting women–a phrase which I use here deliberately and with intent, although without judgement about such men who limit their interactions to consensual ones because YKINMKBYKIOK–makes him the equivalent of “that guy, you know, Catcher in the Rye?” Because if you’re going to have the unmitigated arrogance to compare yourself to J.D. Salinger, it’d help if you knew his name.