4243

If you guys want “surprises” that’s what the question marks are for.

4244

It would’ve been suicide to get rid of the level trappings in The Witcher 3. I think people have an expectation that it should be a rules-crunchy game with levels, loot, special abilities, etc. Fans would’ve gone nuts.

Still, I couldn’t shake the feeling while playing that it would be improved by ignoring most of that stuff.

4245

Of course that perfectly fits the role you are actually playing though.

We all might steer Geralt all over the place for fun, but if there’s no job or problem for someone to ask him to fix why would he? Aside from the main quest line where he definitely has a reason that is. From that perspective it makes total sense that most of the quest lines need to be kicked off by a character.

Until then you can explore the ruined huts, see the tower and the circle of stones (and go underneath the crypt thing there), but the meat of the story of the place is tied to several quests.

I generally find that approach a lot more compelling than finding yet another Dwarven ruin without a lot of story to soak in which features barrels of cabbages and another picture puzzle you’ve already done fifty times honestly.

4246

The question marks and having all interesting places tied to a quest makes it more of a theme park for me than it is an “open world”. Removing the question marks just means removing that sign near the entrance listing all the rides. It doesn’t change the fact that there are no “unlisted” wonders to be found by anyone.

4247

I forgot to comment on this. With 4 million copies of The Witcher 3 sold, they’ve already hit about half the lifetime sales of Witcher 1 and 2 combined.

According to Steamspy, about 575,000 people own this game on Steam. I expect that more people own it direct though GOG than Steam because retail and every other key source was selling the GOG version.

4248

Name me an unlisted wonder from another game that has any meaningful details in it so I know what you are referring to then. I think I am sort of following you (and may even agree to a small extent), but I struggle to think of any real memory of what you’re describing that was anything but a random hole in the ground with maybe a diary laying around.

4249

OK, gonna try turning off the question marks (or as the menu puts it, “undiscovered POIs” - see if that makes it more interesting wrt exploring. Also, about to leave White Orchid, glad to hear it is “tiny” since it was fun but didn’t blow me away.

And again, there’s no need to make an argument whether Skyrim or Witcher 3 is “better” - they really are fundamentally different games that do different things extremely well. It’s a great world for gaming to have them both available.

4250

I turned off PoIs immediately. It feels lot more natural without it.

Also, 4 million are beautiful. Production costs of 3 years was recovered on day 1. Congrats CDP!

4251

Often it wasn’t much more than some notes, some secret passageways and loot. I can’t name a specific example because these places are fairly anonymous but purely from memory I’d like to think I found such places in Thief 2 (life of the party map amongst others), Fallout:NV, Arx Fatalis and ofc Morrowind. (Probably Oblivion and Skyrim too but I fail to remember much from those games)

Also, I’m not saying TW3 is a bad game, far from it, I highly enjoyed it. I’m critiquing the exploration and loot diversity parts of it.

4252

Skyrim. The lighthouse. Spoiler alert for that old game if you haven’t played it before!

You run across a lighthouse. Cool. Go in to see if there’s any unexpected loot or whatever. You find signs that a family lived here, signs that a couple and their daughter lived here. Wonder where they are now, will I see them in the bedrooms, or upstairs? You read notes and diaries, and a story unfolds. He had been a successful businessman in the nearby big city, but always longed to move out and “get away from it all.” Had an opportunity to purchase and take over this lighthouse, out in the country, shores of the water. Very excited by this. You find out his wife was hesitant, but supported her husband in his dream. The daughter: she missed her friends, missed the city, basically like any young teen daughter, but trying to make the best of the situation. She did enjoy playing out by the beach. Hoped her friends would come visit. You get a very nice feel from what you find of this family trying to make a go of breaking away from the rat race, pursuing a new dream.

And then you see traces of… something not right. You read notes that something in the cellar is making noise, probably the damned rats, hey, what do you expect when you move out into the country, right? But having seen all you’ve seen as a world explorer, you get a feeling of dread. You like this family, you want them to succeed in their new life.

More notes, more signs of something bad. Blood. You find the cellar. You go in, and it gets bad. You see signs of what has happened, and notes of the father trying to save his family. You hope that you will find the family, kill the monsters that have invaded their new life, give that back to them. But as you go further in, it looks bad. You find the wife, horribly slaughtered. Signs that the father is trying to find and save his daughter. You rush further in, hoping to save them. Then you find the father, he died trying to save his daughter. OK, please let me find her hiding in a corner of the cellar, kill the monsters, rescue her. Perhaps bring her back to Winterhold (or whatever city it was.) You go faster, deeper, fight off some of the evil beasts that killed the mother and father.

And then tragically, you find the daughter. It’s too late. They just wanted to move out of the city, they left a pleasant life there to pursue a dream, and these frikken monsters destroyed them. I remember putting my bow away because I wanted the visceral feeling of killing the beasts in the cellar with my sword.

I left that lighthouse feeling angry, and sad. Every time I walked past that lighthouse, I remembered the family for whom it represented a dream, a dream that turned into a nightmare.

That was just a random point of interest in Skyrim. Not part of any story, “unimportant” in the scheme of things. Just something I ran into in my exploring. My brother, who was playing when I was and also played a ton, didn’t run into it.

4253

But the exact same things happen in TW3, they just happen to (usually) have named sidequests attached to them. The content is functionally identical. If you don’t go to certain areas in TW3, you’ll miss out on a bunch of content too.

4254

That’s exactly it Jeff, bless you for having functional memory and command of the English language.

4255

Since I haven’t played hundreds of hours of Witcher 3 yet (as I did Skyrim) I’ll not argue with you yet. ;)

4256

As someone who has played and enjoyed almost all of those games, I agree we are lucky to have them!

I just think you’re trying to explain why there’s a slight lack of aha! from exploration, but it’s complicated. I think the given example is such a rarity overall, that it doesn’t pay to really dive that deeply into.

It’s like trying to explain the difference between how it feels to play Quake vs CS. A lot of moving parts combine to differentiate the two even though both feature plenty of guns to shoot many mans with, but gameplay is nothing alike. In the case of huge rpg that’s multiplied tenfold when it comes to player freedom, questing/writing and a thousand other things.

I think they have really in this case nailed what they set out to do, and that’s plop you right into Geralt’s boots in a huge place full of interesting and complicated characters to discover as you go about the business of Witcher-ing. I love it, but I think that expectations can interfere with that.

4257

I knew the lighthouse example was coming because everyone says the lighthouse example. Perhaps it wasn’t a random location at all, but rather carefully placed between Whiterun and Winterhold so everyone would find it.

Anyway, I get it. I like Skyrim too.

This is a fantastic point. Quick, someone whip out “ludonarrative!”

KingNee, this game feels like the opposite of a theme park. Yeah the points of interest are a bit on the nose, but everything has a reason for being. Ghosts need to be dealt with, monster nests contained (“ought to just destroy it”), villages exist for people to live in rather than show off an interesting new style of architecture. You’re not going on a ride and then moving on to the next one. You’re helping people and uncovering mysteries.

Geralt is a professional, not a tourist.

4258

I think you’re bringing some selective lensing to bear on this Jeff. As Ginger Yellow points out, the exact same thing happens all over The Witcher 3. It just makes it a little more story and character intensive.

4259

And for now, I’m kind of playing Geralt like a tourist. I’ve been deliberately avoiding heading to Novograd, even though I’m eventually headed there. I’ve finished up some of the story quest lines and even a lot of secondary quests that can be done for folks at level 10, so I’m dawdling. I’ve been doing Witcher contracts, exploring, playing Gwent wherever I can find a game.

4260

And let’s not forget there ARE neat things to find that aren’t marked: they are simply environment quests with full dialogue or written notes rather than a space to explore by yourself.

It’s really the same structure with a different implementation (quests vs places) and the end result is a different feel.

4261

Bethesda games aren’t very fond of human interaction, so they put a lot of effort in little stories explained by the environment. i could understand in the post-aptocalyptic, ruined Wasteland of Fallout 3, but Skyrim was still the same.
There is no need for the Witcher 3 to use those methods, as they nail people in their games, it’s one of their fortés.

4262

I did that too. As much as I defend the open world bonafides, it really did feel nice to go with the flow and move from Velen to Novigrad to Skellige.

They haven’t solved the problem of side quest distraction in RPGs, but most of us know how to set that aside by now.