I could say the same thing about you, since you think cliches are somehow ideologically neutral, untouched by culture.

But let’s not turn this into an insult fest, please.

I think the best example of what Yahtzee does is his review of Duke Nukem Forever. He uses reviews as a kind of commentary on games, the games industry, games journalism, and gamers.

So you’re saying that the Old Testament is misogynistic.

How helpful.

sigh

You’d be surprised how much better this place becomes once you hit the ignore button on Zylon.

Well, I don’t know. This conversation hasn’t been ignore worthy, we just disagree that’s all. But at this point I don’t really feel like continuing. It’s been running out of steam for awhile.

Just like Zero Punctuation!

That’s what happens when one of the participants in a discussion intentionally adopts the wide-eyed “Explain every. single. thing. to me as if I’m an alien child” approach. This sort of thing can be useful in small doses, but sustained, it tends to drive people to violence.

I have to say, I think some people really do try ever so hard to find things to take offence at, or to take offence at on behalf of others who might take offence at it.

And even that is mostly feigned (mostly. . .).

But yes, I have a problem with Dean’s arguments. I will explain. No, there is no time. I will sum up. Yahtzee is bad for gaming, in part because freshpersons (but wait, did we establish they were freshpeople? I missed that. It isn’t relevant, I’d be mixing a little contempt and a lot of feigned contempt at any group we could have substituted) are badly copying him. I thought he was also bad in part because of his level of invective as well but maybe not. There has been a question of substance, but I feel one cannot criticize Yahtzee here, because there is definitely substance (yes. there is uneven review quality and yes there is an argument he has gone down hill).

Dean adds on a tiny list of critics that his students can name (and yes, sorry, Kotaku?!?), as proof that Yahtzee enjoys too much influence with his students, I think (and possibly people like them? I don’t know). Or at least another reason why he is bad. I have no earthly idea what he’s been teaching in his class; I would assume he has introduced more names for people to examine. If he hasn’t, again I don’t understand what he’s after. If he has, and his students ignored them, yes they’re serving up the weaksauce. They’re pretty typical students, it’s not the end of the world. A life unexamined, though. Either way, we haven’t really established why Yahtzee being copied is somehow an indictment of Yahtzee. Because people do this kind of thing. All the time. The copying itself will probably occasionally result in good but mostly result in bad (90% of everything is crap, and all that). Tthe question of the students getting (or not) Yahtzee remains open.

Dean also makes the SWM argument. It absolutely happens, and it’s absolutely an issue in gamer culture. But I question whether this is really the case with Yahtzee. My counter claim here is very much open to debate as well, of course. But I feel like I have more substance on my side when I can point to actual Yahtzee arguments and all he can point to is yahtzee using the word “gay”. Yes, I know, that in and of itself is supposed to be part of the argument. Nobody “mature” or I’m not sure how else to say it uses the word gay like that.

Yahtzee may not be a hit with the BGLwhatever (there’s a term. I can’t remember what it is) crowd in Dean’s experience. I don’t believe that just because they are gay and don’t care for how the term is often used (reasonably so), they are somehow “correct” in a view of Yahtzee. I would challenge the idea that his language (presumably not just “gay” but any number of other phrases, like “inhaling furious amounts of dick”) hurts his message, certainly the point is arguable. Twain used the term “nigger”, after all, and Twain has received criticism for his “depiction” of blacks (yes, I just went there. No, I am not claiming Yahtzee == Twain). If they can’t find any substance in Yahtzee’s reviews, yes I question that.

And I challenge the notion this thread is SWM dominated and people are missing the point/some other perspective/whatever, even though it is pretty much SWM dominated. I think there are plenty of people here who rise beyond that, in fact.

Was I being snarky? Yes. I long to belong, and here at Qt3 we swim with the sharks (though, you know, this place’s rep is way overrated) and I want BillD to like me, just for a moment, and all that shit. I recognize the dangers in being snarky - it very easily muddles up the lines of communication. And yes, Dean, my style was confrontational. But you levied charges in this thread, implicitly and explicitly. I think some of them needed responses.

Your institution of higher learning couldn’t afford me.

I didn’t. I said there’s legitimate criticism of the stereotype you claim he’s playing off of–except he never really setup that context–which goes beyond issues with the old testament.

If you want to see how that issue is handled very differently in post-apocalyptic movies watch Zombieland and then watch Carriers. You don’t need to relate it to the Old Testament to see the criticism.

You seemed to have seized onto that initial point, rather than addressing the rest of that post which points how as you continue to retreat into redefining the joke, it still doesn’t make much sense and neither does your idea that mindlessly repeating cliches doesn’t propagate their ideologies.

But again, we can go our separate ways at this point. Toodeloo!

Well, I can tell you this much, I’m not personally offended. Otherwise, if I found it really that distasteful, I wouldn’t still watch his reviews from time to time. I usually catch up every couple of weeks, but have been switching to only watching reviews I might find interesting.

I still think he’s funny, regardless, but I can acknowledge that Mayes also has a point. I think many people resort to a knee-jerk defense to just dismiss it as just raging feminism or overzealous political correctness. I really think that’s part of the problem she’s talking about. “Hey, I’m a SWM and I’m not offended. It’s just a joke!” They feel they personally are being targeted because they enjoy ZP, rather than addressing the larger issues at play.

Why not both?

I think blaming him for your students is a bit much, though. Do English literature teachers feel justified complaining that television teaches bad plotting to their students? Of course the raw unshaped mass you get out of high school is going to have terribly uninformed taste.

I’m sorry, I was pretty sure he was baiting me by calling my students names and implying I’m a bad teacher, so I stopped. Quoting him to me isn’t going to make me read it again.

Nice straw man.

Look, I cheered Rebecca Mayes for even raising the question that maybe ZP isn’t the best thing since sliced bread. Yahtzee responded to her that he’s not misogynistic, he hates everyone equally. Fine.

I hold my students up as a sample, not because I want to denigrate them, but because they’re smart and capable and interested enough in game development that they want to go to college for it, and the first critic they can name by far is Yahtzee. The second isn’t even a person, and the others are more famous for their podcasts and their firings. What I hoped to say (but it doesn’t seem clear to you, unless you’re being willfully obtuse) is that games criticism isn’t working correctly if smart people think Yahtzee is the pinnacle of criticism.

This may be a foreign concept to you, Mr. dog, but many teachers ask some questions at the very start of a new class to see what their students already know. So it doesn’t seem like a stretch to say, “Can anyone tell me who their favorite game critic is?” on the first day of a critical studies class in order to see who they’re familiar with.

Once I see who they’re not familiar with, I then know who to have them read. But this is wide-eyed alien baby territory, where you’re just baiting me and wasting my time by having me explain this to you.

Well, here’s a question-- why has Yahtzee been embraced by the industry that he savages every week? Why did the awards show at GDC use him as an opener?

When he dumps on a game you like, why do you excuse it? Or do you? He says he gets tons of hate mail. I guess the Killzone fanboys generate it all or something.

The only thing I get from your back and forth is that you like Yahtzee and somehow the burden of proof is on me to explain why he’s bad. Sorry. Why’s he so good?

Yahtzee compared to Rush Limbaugh (yeah, that was me), and Mark Twain in the same thread! Jesus, I hope he’s reading and laughing his ass off.

No shit? Really?

We don’t pay speakers.

I’m not, and I’ll say it again-- I like my students. They’re smart, dedicated, and hard working.

Have you ever hung around with English Lit. profs? They bitch and moan about every kind of new media. Here’s an entire book dedicated to proving that students today are worse than students were when this guy started teaching. It was mailed to every prof in my department. I got about halfway through it and realized it was making me miserable because the students he was describing weren’t the ones I was seeing every day and I wanted to tell him so. Instead, I just shelved the book.

Don’t forget perceptive!:

:)

Being annoyed because today’s college freshmen are ignorant and/or have terrible taste is pretty much like getting upset because water is wet. [I]This is why they are in college and people are paid good money to teach them.

[/I]Besides, what would we have if we took Yahtzee out and lynched him for being an arrogant misogynist asshole? Then the froshs’ favorite source of game commentary would be the stinking hole that is Kotaku. We should all give thanks to Crowshaw for saving the nation’s youth from such a fate.

“Then they came for Yahtzee, and the only people left to provide video game commentary was the stinking hole that is Kotaku, and I wished they had came for me instead.”

SHIT
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I wonder what the numbers on ratios of straight white males to non-SWMs who like Yahtzee/viewers of Yahtzee are compared to those who like Tom Chick/read Fidgit.com.