Thomas Frank: What's the Matter with Kansas?

Thomas Frank’s What’s The Matter With Kansas: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805073396

This is the definitive book on post-60s politics in the United States, detailing the roots, strategies, and history of the working class cultural backlash.

It’s an amazing, funny, breezy read. But as you flip through the pages, seeing the bricks of his argument thud into the dirt, you come to realize what the future has in store. If the Democrats continue their policy of “hey, at least we’re not the GOP!” giveaways to the rich, acceptance of union-busting, well-meaning but badly-framed givewaways to the non-working poor, and totally unrestrained cultural liberalism framed in aggrieved-minority spoils terms, they will lose elections for the indefinite future. They will see the destruction of everything they care about. They will see the United States of America turn into “Brazil with a big military” - an insanely rich plutocracy ruling sway over a seething, manipulated underclass. Frank doesn’t go into it in too much detail on solutions - he mostly diagnoses - but I think this book points the way towards a policy of value-framed, working-class centered money policies - smart trade, regulation of the heavy hand of big business, helping those who actually work, who don’t live on inherited money. More on solutions below the review.

In the 2000 presidential election, the poorest county in the entire United States - McPherson County, Nebraska - voted for George Bush over Al Gore by a margin of 60 points.

Read that again, and reflect on the cosmic insanity of that sentence. All liberals know that the Republicans are the party that screws workers and crushes the poor. What’s happening here?

Thomas Frank knows. The modern narrative of politics in the United States is this:

My friend’s dad was a teacher in the local public schools, a loyal member of the teachers’ union, and a more dedicated liberal than most; not only had he been a staunch supporter of Geroge McGovern, but in the 1980 Democratic primary he had voted for Barbara Jordan, the black U.S. Representative from Texas. My friend, meanwhile, was in those days a high school Republican, a Reagan youth who fancied Adam Smith ties and savored the writing of William F. Buckley. The dad would listen to the son spout off about Milton Friedman and the godliness of free-market capitalism, and he would just shake his head. Someday, kid, you’ll know what a jerk you are.

It was the dad, though, that eventually converted. These days he votes for the farthest right Republicans he can find on the ballot. The particular issue that brought him over was abortion. A devout Catholic, my friend’s dad was persuaded in the early inineties that the sanctity of the fetus outweighed all of his other concerns, and from there he gradually accepted the whole pantheon of conservative devil-figures; the elite media and the American Civil Liberties Union, contemptuous of our values; the la-di-da feminists; the idea that Christians are vilely persecuted - right here in the U.S. of A. It doesn’t even bother him, really, when his new hero Bill O’ Reilly blasts the teachers’ union as a group “that does not love America.”

His superaverage midwestern town, meanwhile has followed the same trajectory. Even as Republican economic policy has laid waste to the city’s industries, unions, and neighborhoods, the townsfolk responded by lashing out on cultural issues, eventually winding up with a hard-right Republican congressman, a born-again Christian who campaigned largely on an anti-abortion platform. Today the city looks like a minature Detroit. And with every bit of economic bad news it seems to get more bitter, more cynical, and more conservative still.

This sentence is probably the best summary of the last 40 years in politics:

Because some artist decides to shock the hicks by dunking Jesus in urine, the enter planet must remake itself along the lines preferred by the Republican Party, U.S.A.

This would be strange enough, but it becomes downright loony when you reflect that the exact same people using the exact same rhetoric gave us all of the liberal reforms of the late 19th and early 20th century. Unions, the minimum wage, a shorter workweek, bringing corporations to heel - railroads in those days - worker safety, social security, the progressive income tax - all of it. Remember that line about “raise less corn, and more hell?” From a Kansas mass meeting. The midwest had socialist newspapers, socialist mayors, Eugene Debs won counties there, it was convulsed with bloody working class strikes. Now, they’re willing to give it all away, if that’s the price they have to pay to get rid of those damned treasonous liberals at the colleges, get the girls kissing each other off tv, stop your kids from getting pregnant and cursing at you - the Republicans promise to fix it, and Kansas votes for it knowing exactly the cost. That the Republicans never deliver, instead turning the country into an economic Brazil isn’t that big of a deal; everyone knows the death of christian culture is insolvable - after all, we’re probably in the end of days. What’s important is we fight, and stick it to those damned Hollywood liberals with their save the whales and hatred of God.

Tell this to sort of thing to your average upper-middle class liberal today - Atlantic Monthly reader, New Yorker lover - and he’ll tell you these voters are one of three things:

“They’re uneducated hicks.” Ok, but what about the rural roots of the progressive movement?

“Well then, they’re racists.” What about white-bread Kansas, with its history of bloody fighting against the forces of slavery? Kansas was the site of open warfare in the mid-19th century and they’re damned proud of fighting against slavery then.

“Ah, they’re crazy religious nuts!” Ok, what about the history of the evangelical movement, especially in the midwest, on progressive economic reforms and fighting slavery?

In short, those stock answers are a dodge that comes from the growing separation between the rich and poor in our country, especially in culture, especially in the war around our modern consumer culture’s desire for authenticity. They say we don’t understand them, and they’re goddamn right. So they sneer at our pretensions, write hundred page fantasy screeds about the coming war against urban intellectuals, and always with the hatred of our precious, precious lattes. You see, the one thing they have over their new overlords - us, the upper classes, whether it’s the charlatan Republicans promising to fix their problems or the clueless liberals - is their cultural authenticity. Man of the people, clarity, appeals to common sense - those are what everyone in modern consumer culture is fighting for to define their jobs and their lives. The upper class movement for “simplicity” has the same damned roots as the lower middle class buying cowboy hats, after all.

Abortion is the issue in this story. As Frank details, there was an evangelical uprising during the 1990s in Kansas over abortion which threw out the Democratic governor, control of both houses, and knocked off half the Republican moderates. Just like the previous populist movements, there were mass meetings, spontaneous mass demonstration, reinforcing disapproval from the establishment - all the ingredients of a political firestorm to blow through the state, cleansing everything more complicated than earthy bedrock, leaving a flat divide over abortion as the single decision you must make, that is unavoidable, that is the new dividing line between Us and Them. The Republican establishment of old there is barely hanging on; a few have started defecting to the Democrats out of absolute terror that their upper middle-class cultural niceties will be threatened . Which only reinforces the stereotype, of course.

Those in the GOP who’ve decided to ride the wave of rage have done far better - take Senator Brownback. He’s famous for wanting to hold congressional investigations into “cultural decline”, insisting cultural coarseness can be measured objectively, and once washed the feet of a former aid leaving his service. Funny - he was actually a boring Republican pro-choice moderate before abortion got big. He’s just found a new gig, being careful to focus on issues that are extremely remote and almost by definition cannot be solved - international human trafficking, cultural decline, abortion. That it’s all a possibly-not-conscious sham can be seen in his opposition to loosening media concentration rules in the late 1990s; he favored getting rid of the rules because hey, that’s what companies do! How dare you try to get in their way! He’s the absolute toast of the local Koch rich people money, of course, with all the trappings of power that go along with it.

That’s the current situtation. Now how the hell did something this batshit crazy come to pass? Frank’s theory is that the business world has slowly faded out of the worldview of the working class, both due to organized propaganda campaigns from the right and massive mistakes on the left; and once that’s gone, well the backlash is an appealling theory. On the right: there was an actual organized campaign by the advertising industry to get people to identify themselves as “consumers” instead of workers. I’m serious. Ever notice how strange that word is, or wonder where the hell it came from? There you go. Then there’s the story of a tiny set of very rich conservatives - British-style aristocrat conservative, that is - buying themselves the trappings of a social movement. Olin, Scaife, Koch, and so on, as detailed by David Brock and Sidney Bluementhal. On the left: reacting to the racial convlusions that killed the FDR coalition by intentionally turning into the party of the social mores of the upper middle-class, jettisoning ever more of the working class, culminating in the collective decision to become the party of socially liberal bond traders in the 1990s.

When business & economics is something that just happens, that might as well be on the astral plane for all you think about it, the backlash makes sense. All the things the working class doesn’t like about where our culture is going - saucy stick-it-to-the-man rebellion by teenagers, sex on television, the dissolution of the nuclear family into teenage pregnancy and living together outside of marriage, casual sex, gangster rap - it’s all because of those damned hollywood & college liberals poisoning their minds through flee-floating insiduous ideas. That this theory is manifestly at odds with the real world - is there a more powerless political group than college english professors or Hollywood stars? - doesn’t matter; you can’t beat a bad theory with no theory. That all the things in crass popular culture are there because corporations get very, very rich putting them there is so off the wall and against the conventional wisdom people literally don’t understand what you’re talking about. Here’s Frank discussing the obsession with Hollywood:

But the backlash offers more than this ready-made class identity. It also gives people a general way of understanding the buzzing mass-cultural world we inhabit. Consider, for example, the stereotype of liberals that comes up so often in the backlash oeuvre: arrogant, rich, tasteful, fashionable, and all-powerful. In my real-world experience liberals are nothing of the kind. They are an assortment of complainers - for the most part impoverished complainers - who wield about as much influence over American politics as the cashier at Home Depot does over the business strategy. This is not a secret, either; read any issue of The Nation or In These Times or the magazine sent to members of the United Steelworkers, and you figure out pretty quickly that liberals don’t speak for the powerful or wealthy.

But when you flip through People magazine, you come away with a very different impression of what liberals are like. Here you read about movie stars who go to charity balls for causes like charity rights and the “underpriviledged.” Singers who were big in the seventies express their concern with neatly folded ribbons for this set of victims of that. Minor TV personalities instruct the world to stop saying mean things about the overweight or the handicapped. And beautiful people of every description don expensive transgressive fashions, buy expensive transgressive art, eat at expensive transgressive restaurants, and get edgy with an expensive punk sensibility or an expensive earth-friendly look.

Here liberalism is a matter of shallow appearances, of fatuous self-righteousness; it is arrogant and condescending, a politics in which the beautiful and wellborn tell the unwashed and the beaten-down and the funny-looking how they ought to behave, how they should stop being a racist or homophobic, how they should be better people. In America, where the chief sources of one’s ideas about life’s possibilities are TV and the movies, it’s not hard to be convinced that we inhabit a liberal-dominated world: feminist cartoons for ten-year-olds are followed by commercials for nonconformist deodorants; entire families of movies are organized around some transcendent dick joke; even shows for toddlers have theme songs about keeping it real.

Frank talks to the workers responsible for organizing and running the 1990s Kansas revolution. They’re line workers at the bottling plant, they live in the tract homes that the local upper middle class establishment sneers at, they dress unpretentiously like their parents used to, they shop at the very Wal-Mart that picks their pockets. But - this is an important but - they use the revolutionary rhetoric and plans of action developed in the 1960s by the New Left. Kids wear anti-evolution t-shirts, imploring us to “Subvert the Dominant Paradigm.” The commodification of dissent, as Frank has discused in his previous books, is here in full force - express your disapproval of popular culture by buying Christian music and clothing! When Frank tries to ask them what they think of the idea that big business is the root of all their problems, they basically give him blank stares. The capitalists have won. The question of their power is way off the map, an unthought.

I’m leaving out a lot - how the very American focus on the power of positive thinking leads to the creation of a certain type of guy who is incredibly bitter aggrieved and bitter, in spite of having it all; the hilarious bits of doublethink David Brooks and his ilk go through to explain the backlash without using any economics; the many ways in which the Red State/Blue State divide is wrong; the almost-governor of Kansas in the 1920s who promised to restore male virility through goat testicle transplants; the dead-serious perfectly nice guy who declared himself Pope a few years back and is a perfect example of the backlash mindset. Not to mention Frank’s truly amazing grasp of rhetorical power. Watch the master at work:

Let us pause for a moment to ponder this all-American dysfunction. A state is spectacularly ill served by the Reagan-Bush stampede of deregulation, privatization, and laissez-faire. It sees its countryside depopulated, its towns disintegrate, its cities stagnate - and its wealthy enclaves sparkle, behind their remote-controlled security gates. The state erupts in revolt, making headlines around the world with its bold defiance of convention. But what do its rebels demand? More of the very measure that have brought ruination on them and their
neighbors in the first place.

This is not just the mystery of Kansas; this is the mystery of America, the historical shift that has made it all possible.

In Kansas the shift is more staggering than elsewhere, simply because it has been so decisive, so extreme. The people who were once radical are now reactionary. Though they speak today in the same aggrieved language of victimization, and though they face the same array of economics forces as their hard-bitten ancestors, today’s populists make demands that are precisely the opposite. Tear down the federal farm programs, they cry. Privatize the utilities. Repeal the progressive taxes. All that Kansas asks today is a little help nailing itself to that cross of gold.

In its implacable bitterness Kansas holds up a mirror to the rest of us. If this is the place where America goes looking for its national soul, then this is where American finds that its soul, after stewing in the primal resentment of the backlash, has gone all sour and wrong. If Kansas is the concentrated essence of normality, then here is where we can see the deranged gradaully become normal, where we look into that handsome, confident, reassuring, all-American face - class president, quarterback, Rhodes scholar, bond trader, builder of industry - and realize that we are staring into the eyes of a lunatic.

From the air-conditioned heights of a suburban office complex this may look like a new age of reason, with the Web sites singing each to each, with a mall down the way that every week has miraculously anticipated our subtly shifting tastes, with a global economy whose rich rewards just keep flowing, and with a long parade of rust-free Infinitis purring down the streets of beautifully manicured planned communities. But on closer inspection the country seems more like a panorama of madness and delusion worthy of Hieronymous Bosch: of sturdy blue-collar patriots reciting the Pledge while they strangle their own life chances; of small farmers proudly voting themselves off the land; of devoted family men carefully seeing to it that their children will never be able to afford college or proper health care; of working-class guys in midwestern cities cheering as they deliver up a landslide for a candidate whose policies will end their way of life, will transform their region into a “rust belt,” will strike people like them blows from which they will never recover.

It’s all enough to make you go soak in the tub holding your head.

This is the question for 2005: where is liberalism? Where is a real, honest-to-god left that focuses on the value of work, not the value of money? Don’t believe me on “economic populism is the solution?” Read this: http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=8956

In Vermont, Representative Bernie Sanders, the House’s only independent and a self-described socialist, racks up big wins in the “Northeast Kingdom,” the rock-ribbed Republican region along the New Hampshire border. Far from the Birkenstock-wearing, liberal caricature of Vermont, the Kingdom is one of the most culturally conservative hotbeds in New England, the place that helped fuel the “Take Back Vermont” movement against gay civil unions.

Yet the pro-choice, pro–gay-rights Sanders’ economic stances help him bridge the cultural divide. In the 1990s, he was one of the most energetic opponents of the trade deals with China and Mexico that destroyed the local economy. In the Bush era, he highlighted the inequity of the White House’s soak-the-rich tax-cut plan by proposing to instead provide $300 tax-rebate checks to every man, woman, and child regardless of income (a version of Sanders’ rebate eventually became law). For his efforts, Sanders has been rewarded in GOP strongholds like Newport Town. While voters there backed George W. Bush and Republican Governor Jim Douglas in 2004, they also gave Sanders 68 percent of the vote.

Sanders’ strength among rural conservatives is not just a cult of personality; it is economic populism’s broader triumph over divisive social issues. In culturally conservative Derby, for instance, a first-time third-party candidate used a populist message to defeat a longtime Republican state representative who had become an icon of Vermont’s anti-gay movement.

There’s more examples in there of Democrats standing up on economics and beating the shit of the GOP in places where they “shouldn’t” be doing so - Montana, North Dakota, North Carolina. Unlike the unrestricted free-trade, moderate upper-class Democrats who normally run against culture backlash Republicans - kind of the average swing election nowdays - they win.

The interesting thing about the left-aligned people on this forum seems to be that we’re all upper-middle class, at the very least in outlook if not income. As such, there’s kind of this economic sorta-libertarian plus culturally liberal thing, which is the accurate stereotype of why we lose. It’s hilarious. Myself, only recently have I done the reading and found out the econ 101 nostrums about “free trade” are ridiculous; before that I was a trade absolutist, like a large part of the educated professional left. Little thing called reality doesn’t match up, apparently - only a handful of first-world countries have industrialized through neoliberal trade policies, and they’re not very good models for anyone else - Singapore. By contrast, the United States, France, Germany, Japan, South Korea all had amazingly sheltered domestic industries until after they got rich, and things have been liberalized since then less than you realize.

So I’ve got to ask: would you vote for FDR’s policies? This is not an rhetorical question anymore. They’re all on the chopping block: social security, the income tax, probably the minimum wage at some point (who would have thought of a 2005 push for social security’s elimination in 1980?) - if there is not a serious return to the progressive tradition in the Democratic party, we will lose them all.

A closing thought: do you know what they called the socially liberal upper middle class of the 1920s?

Republicans.

When Frank tries to ask them what they think of the idea that big business is the root of all their problems, they basically give him blank stares. The capitalists have won.

Dood. Seriously. What’s with the anti-capitalist tirade? How is big business responsible for all of anyone’s problems? How do you with your window office at Microsoft cause problems for some kid in Kansas?

The problems that drive the cultural backlash? Coarseness on television, a consumer culture that encourages disrespect, that rewards sneering at flyover country? Big business. The economic disaster zone the American small town? Big business. The screwing of the American working class that’s made them lash out in anger? Big business.

Big Business, the easy to blame boogey man.

I’ve got good intentions! I don’t have to show causality!

Or to put it simply…

The screwing of the American working class that’s made them lash out in anger? Big business.
Yeah, okay there Marx.

So where does it come from, then? Small towns are just decided to up and die? Popular culture gets shittier due to the inherent evil of humanity?

I don’t think you help your cause by this facile reduction. First, I don’t think Big Business is necessarily any more amoral than Small Business; and second, isn’t the real problem closer to an unregulated Big Business? Frank is by no means a communist and while he likes to praise the NFL as the worm of socialism at the heart of American capitalism, I don’t know really how socialist he is. I’ve always thought of him as a classic New Dealer; a liberal democrat who wants to use the state to protect us from the worst excesses of Big Business. I’ve always thought he doesn’t regard Big Business as any more sinister than a great white shark – it ferociously eats because that’s its nature; and business naturally seeks profit and tries to destroy its competition because that’s its nature (or at least the nature of our system.) In that process Big Business provides jobs and wealth, much better than the government or a centrally planned economy could do. I could be misreading Frank, but I think he sees the problem not as “Big Business” but as “Big Business Unrestrained.”

I was idealistic once in my yoot. I was gonna change the world for the better. Now, I just make sarcastic comments. (Although I still have some weird random moments of kindness, I keep 'em quiet.)

He’s a socialist, for real (I know him). But, like most socialists, he focuses much more on criticizing present wrongs than on describing a new, better system, so you don’t have to be a socialist to like his work.

Well, the reason socialists don’t have any better ideas is because their ideas have a track record of horrible failure. Whoops, that market does seem to work a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

Jason-

  1. Absolutist free trade doesn’t exist outside of your strawmen. The most neoliberal of the neoliberals will accept the need to restrict trade to help an infant industry, among other reasons.

  2. I don’t see the relevance of that little factoid you discovered. “The US industrialized 200 years ago without free trade, so now…”

For someone so fond of following the money, you don’t seem to get that nearly every trade restriction is a direct money transfer from the consumers(or taxpayers) to the industry in question. That’s big business fucking over the little guy! Far more directly than however Wal Mart does it.

Frank is an engaging guy, but from what I’ve seen he’s just an old school socialist whining about how nobody is socialist anymore. He’s just sure that if we socialized up, we’d fix everything. Just give socialism one more chance!

The Capitalists have won, and the poor are better off for it.

So they say in San Fran.

I couldn’t agree more. Socialism runs on academic faith.

He does a lot of that, yes, and so do his imitators/toadies.

Jason, thanks for the excellent overview of Frank’s book. I agree about his skill at diagnosing the situation, and the quality of his prose and nicely-timed jabs. However, where I disagreed with Frank, and apparently with you as well, is in the area of solutions.

I suspect that I would be lumped into what you dismissively describe as the socially liberal / economically libertarian wing on this board. You say that in the 1920s this group was the Republicans. I guess your implication is that people with views like mine (and a lot of others on this board) are marginalized and will likely be as ineffectual as the 1920s Republicans were for the next 50 years.

I disagree: the analogy is imperfect, the world is different, and both politics and economics have changed a lot.

It seems like your alternative (and Frank’s) is a return to a more socialist / working class / union oriented Democratic party. However I am not sure what policies that involves.

In this and other threads you’ve mentioned free trade. I think it is unequivocally true that free trade does in fact screw a segment of the working class. There is also good evidence that the long term effects are strongly positive in terms of overall growth. This means that the right wing “free trade is good, everybody benefits!” is bunk and the left wing “free trade is bad, it screws everybody!” is also bunk. Clearly the answer is to have a system that uses the benefits of free trade to mitigate the damages and ameliorates the harm: access to retraining and better education to help displaced workers; investment in infrastructure to encourage the development of new opportunities (which will employ displaced workers) and so forth. You rather dismissively said in the prior thread that this combination of ideas is just not on the national political radar right now. SO? Put it on there man. Jeez don’t just give up and say well we have to all be good little socialists.

Here is my big dispute with Frank: socialism has failed. Failed freakin’ miserably. You can argue about the implementation and so on but I am absolutely convinced that full on socialism belongs on the dust heap of history for a variety of reasons. That doesn’t mean that certain aspects of socialistic-style ideas don’t still have relevancy. There are many things that can be done to ameliorate the cyclical ups and downs and gaps and other problems with capitalism. Risk pooling, long range stabilizing investments, national investment in infrasatructure and education, and so on. But that puts us back into that “moderate” range of policies which you seem so dismissive of.

The big issue that Frank skips is that Democrats bear a large part of the blame for the current situation b/c the way they chose to implement many of their policies, especially in the 60s and 70s were grossly inefficient and often outright failures. You mention this with your reference to “well meaning but badly framed giveaways to the working poor” but IMO it goes quite a bit beyond this. The Demos have in fact gone too far in many areas with nanny-state intrusive regulation, with overly complicated and grossly inefficient tax systems, with unproductive systems of government employment and massive costs of employment and benefits for government workers, with divisive, ineffective and frankly discriminatory affirmative action quotas and preferences, with the overuse of victim mentality and an overreliance on litigation, and on and on.

I agree with quite a bit of the Demo principles but their methods of implementation have absolutely sucked for the last 40 years. Also, I do disagree in several key ares (racial preferences, victim mentality, conspiracy attitudes towards “evil corporations”, among others).

Until the Demos actually come up with policies that work there won’t be a fair test of political ideas in this country. In general I think the ideas that John Edwards put forward in the primaries were some of the best Demo ideas in a long time. And yes, he was for some limits on free trade, but I can live with that. I’m not an absolutist.

On the issue of the culture war, I think things are going to get seriously weird over the next decade or two. First off, how long do you think the cultural conservatives will accept failure to achieve their cultural goals? What happens to the social moderate capitalist faction of the Republican party when the social conservatives finally start getting their way on censorship and other issues? What about the libertarian faction within the Republicans?

And of course politically over the next 4 years, nothing is bigger than Iraq. I still don’t know how that’s going to come out but I strongly believe it will have a major impact on the political future of this country.

My bottom line on Frank: great diagnosis, fantastic writing, very good humor, completely failed grasp of solutions.

A good book to start discussion but not to end it :).

Dan

PS - an issue which has been left out of this discussion but really shouldn’t be is the environment. I’m halfway through Collapse by Diamond and its a fantastic read thus far. More later…

Far more directly than however Wal Mart does it.

Wal-Mart screws everything up by moving money out of the community. Most “Big Business” does this. Communities in my area are reacting to this by preventing corporations from opening stores in their areas, and they are doing very well because of it. There are a lot of little communities all over the Olympic Peninsula (here in Washington) that say No to Wal-Mart, Taco Bell, McDonalds (for the most part) and are thriving because of it.

Good to see that cronyism and protectionism are still alive.

Free traders are to economics the way some Christian Scientists are to health care: if you show them a bad outcome, it’s because your faith wasn’t pure enough.

The problem with Liberalism that led to the current state of things is one derived from the '60s, if not before.

I’ve never figured out just what the 1960s were trying to accomplish, culturally speaking, and I really doubt ANYONE does, even the leaders of the youth counterculture of that time. They were big on “change”, but change is an infinitely nebulous word. All it means is “different from now”.

So basically, they were REALLY behind a movement that they themselves didn’t know the identity of. Whoa, sounds like a great plan there.

The best current interpretation I have of the 1960s is that they were trying to create a spirit, a way of thinking and of behavior, perhaps a morality.

If so, then they went about it all wrong. Take a close look at late 1960s culture. It seems almost absurdly confident, at least for a movement with no intellectual backing. So the question becomes, WHY the confidence?

I argue that the 1960s demonized the culture they were trying to move away from. There was a big disdain for older culture, or older humans, or older anything. THIS was the birth of disdain for parents, and of the willingness for youth culture to dominate.

All of that can be fine under certain conditions. The biggest problem I see is that the 1960s didn’t understand older culture to enough of an extent to make demonization just. Its not surprising given that that they didn’t understand what THEY were about, either.

All in all, it was a poor performance. Yet it was a performance with great potential dangers. Ask many of the counterculturals back then and they would have given a diatribe worthy of Hitler in its intensity and confidence. They knew not what the war was about, exactly, but they knew they were in one.

The 1960s flat out scared traditional culture. And when the 1960s were never truly justified it scared them even worse, since they wonder how close things got to becoming disastrous.

So I guess the mantra became “disaster prevention”. Liberals became demonized, whether or not they had anything to do with the '60s. Political Correctness, the Everyone is Careful policy, was installed.

This was also the height of the Cold War, where humans lived under the dark spectre of nuclear annihilation. Fear was fucking and breeding like rabbits.

The “traditional culture” was made up of a vast majority of Americans, including many liberals. The 1960s was much more a matter of “Youth culture” than “Liberal culture”.

So what happens when those youth grow up? Funny, I don’t hear those intense, confident diatribes anymore.

Somehow, despite the failure of the original Youth Culture, the system stays in place. I guess our parents want us to succeed where they failed. But the kids don’t want it. So they turn to apathetic slacking in rebellion. The parents don’t understand it and life goes on.

One of the great political coups of recent decades is a lie. Conservatives managed to blame the '60s on the Liberals. Somehow Liberals accepted this notion. Great work. Then when Conservatives became afraid that the fear culture they were exploiting so well was going away with the fall of the nuclear threat, they manufactured a fear and despair culture with their on-air Demagogues and Defeatists. Gotta keep the fear going!

Two solutions: Destroy the Youth Culture and destroy the Fear Culture.

I don’t think you help your cause by this facile reduction. First, I don’t think Big Business is necessarily any more amoral than Small Business; and second, isn’t the real problem closer to an unregulated Big Business.

Oh, of course, but after 3500 words I have to make up the word count somewhere. I’m not sure how rhetorically effective “lets somewhat regulate businesses” is compared to “they are fucking you,” though.

Are you using “socialism” as a stand-in for “the USSR” here? Because here in the United States, socialist ideas like Social Security, the minimum wage, and the 40 hour work week have served us pretty well.

  1. Absolutist free trade doesn’t exist outside of your strawmen. The most neoliberal of the neoliberals will accept the need to restrict trade to help an infant industry, among other reasons.

  2. I don’t see the relevance of that little factoid you discovered. “The US industrialized 200 years ago without free trade, so now…”

  1. Talk to Cato, they hold this position. Everyone else uses the “unrestricted trade for the first world, sheltering industries that first-world rich people like” line.
  2. It’s a “little factoid” that getting rich through neoliberal free trade is historically not the way things happened?

For someone so fond of following the money, you don’t seem to get that nearly every trade restriction is a direct money transfer from the consumers(or taxpayers) to the industry in question. That’s big business fucking over the little guy! Far more directly than however Wal Mart does it.

That’s blackboard econ 101, which is a starting point, not a final conclusion; it assumes a binary yes/no trade relationship; and it doesn’t include any political economy. Take the 1970s and 1980s disaster in US auto manufacturing, for example: just because Japan learned how to build good cheap cars, it doesn’t follow that Detroit’s working class had to be totally destroyed. There’s all sorts of mitigation policies that should have been done; instead we got Reagan telling people to buy a bus ticket to where the jobs were. And what made Detroit start doing ok in the 1990s again? Protectionist restrictions on Japanese light trucks/SUVs!

Yeah, what’s this crap about how “socialism as failed”? Communism failed in the East, but it ain’t the same thing. The USSR take on socialism was about as close to honest populist socialism as the robber baronies of the previous century were to Adam Smith.

Let’s see: universal child care benefits, universal health care of some sort, the doubling of the minimum wage to bring it back to 1950s real-dollar levels, rebuilding union protections to where they were in the 1970s, organizing retail unions, organizing food service unions, busting the agriculture trusts, busting the wall street financial trusts, a tax on speculative short-term held transactions, restrictions on media concentration, taxing the crap out of the super rich to pay for it, an estate tax, a “retained wealth” tax…I could go own for quite a while.

You rather dismissively said in the prior thread that this combination of ideas is just not on the national political radar right now. SO? Put it on there man. Jeez don’t just give up and say well we have to all be good little socialists.

As much as I agree, can you name a political movement that was reversed by the minority advocating a reasonable, moderate solution in the other direction?

The Demos have in fact gone too far in many areas with nanny-state intrusive regulation, with overly complicated and grossly inefficient tax systems, with unproductive systems of government employment and massive costs of employment and benefits for government workers, with divisive, ineffective and frankly discriminatory affirmative action quotas and preferences, with the overuse of victim mentality and an overreliance on litigation, and on and on.

This is the upper class perspective. Do you know anyone in the working class who gives a shit about litigation/victim mentality? It’s like the word “entitlements” - it’s used soley by the writers and readers of the Atlantic Monthly. I agree on affirmative action being a total disaster in implementation, though.

Here is my big dispute with Frank: socialism has failed. Failed freakin’ miserably. You can argue about the implementation and so on but I am absolutely convinced that full on socialism belongs on the dust heap of history for a variety of reasons. That doesn’t mean that certain aspects of socialistic-style ideas don’t still have relevancy. There are many things that can be done to ameliorate the cyclical ups and downs and gaps and other problems with capitalism. Risk pooling, long range stabilizing investments, national investment in infrasatructure and education, and so on. But that puts us back into that “moderate” range of policies which you seem so dismissive of.

Argh, you say socialism has failed, but then follow that right up with a list of socialist policies! Communism != Marxism != Socialism != USSR.

On the issue of the culture war, I think things are going to get seriously weird over the next decade or two. First off, how long do you think the cultural conservatives will accept failure to achieve their cultural goals? What happens to the social moderate capitalist faction of the Republican party when the social conservatives finally start getting their way on censorship and other issues? What about the libertarian faction within the Republicans?

I honestly have no idea, and that’s the reason Roth’s book scared me. It’s a nihilist political framework, and those tend to have no limits. I’m half-expecting to wake up to the US equivalent of General Franco someday.