Titans/McNair issues

Which is why I don’t care if people say VY’s not a first rounder. But that has nothing to do whatsoever with Bush!

Again I ask: Why does being a Texas fan have any bearing on my opinion of Bush?

I mean, if I were a UCLA fan, you might have something.

In a vacuum (discounting needs), my top prospects would have been Ferguson, Leinart, and Williams. After that, I would have taken Lendale White as the first RB, but after recent reports of a bad attitude and being lazy/soft, he’s dropping on my draft board pretty fast. The last thing you want/need is someone with a bad attitude coming in and fucking things up. I’d probably put DeAngelo Williams and Laurence Maroney ahead of Bush, since they showed real production as RBs and not as ‘offensive threats’. The reality is that elite players don’t get drafted for PR/KR duties, and about 50% of Bush’s reputation is based on his return skills.

Other players I’d take ahead of Bush – Holmes, Cutler, Jean-Gilles, Hali, D’Qwell Jackson, Parham, Hawk, Greenway, and a few others.

Dude, that’s homerism. I said the same shit about Wuerffel, mmk?

The only person I can really compare him to is Michael Jordan

You’re killing me. The only player I’ve seen that even remotely qualifies is Mike Vick as a freshman, and he hasn’t [<– Bill taunt] lived up to expectations as the #1 overall pick.

Let me put this more bluntly – Mike Vick has better everything than Young, with the exception of size and maybe leadership. Vick is faster, has a stronger arm, and far shiftier moves. Vick is the only ‘once in a generation’ player in recent memory I can think of.

Vick is SO fast, particularly in pads, that he’s about the only player I can think of that translated his schoolyard college game to the pros successfully. Okay, and Barry Sanders.

So although I don’t blame teams for not drafting him, I believe that he will make whoever does draft him look like a genius.

Wait, you’re a genius if you take a consensus first rounder in the first round?

Oh man, I can’t wait to see how things pan out next year and you have the excuses all lined up as to why he’s sucking =)

I’m still trying to figure out how David Klingler got into this discussion… Or is that Akili Smith? Ryan Leaf?

Geoff

Dude, that’s homerism. I said the same shit about Wuerffel, mmk?

Dude, I admitted that before you pointed it out to me. Pay attention! whack whackity whack

The point isn’t that I think VY should be picked over Bush, but rather that I don’t think Bush should be a first-rounder regardless of where anyone else goes.

but rather that I don’t think Bush should be a first-rounder regardless of where anyone else goes.

That’s a mighty bold statement. I think it’s wrong, but it’s pretty bold.

I still think it’s fantastic that someone pointed to Reggie Bush gaining 75 yards on 6 carries as evidence that he isn’t good. I’m not even going to bother reading the rest of the thread that’s so awesome. I mean, he even linked to the box score. It wasn’t just some hazy memory that he only got 70something yards, he linked the freaking box.

Reggie Bush showed the whole world what a retard he really is with his dumbassery in the Rose Bowl.

But he’s a kid. Kids are dumbasses. The thing is, he’s a dumbass kid with not-of-this-world talent and he’s going to do amazing things in the NFL.

Yeah, but if you take out the 45-yard long run, he averged only 7 ypc. :)

Sorry, I have a hard time thinking there’s anything bad about someone making Oklahoma their bitch, even if it goes against the point I’m trying to make. :)

Truer words have never been said.

Let’s just get this “homerism” thing straight once and for all.

I might need to add Colorado State onto the list (above “everyone else”) since my neighbor’s a former CSU linebacker.

BTG, you would take Kai Parham over Reggie Bush? I’d LOVE to hear the explanation for that.

That list is way, way too long to list, but you forgot Andre Ware and Tim Couch.

Yes, he’s real good, and he’s shown it without relying on raw athleticism. My gripe with Bush is that he basically has ONE killer trait: elusiveness. And that’s a real, real hard attribute to push to the next level. So many guys have “moves” and then get their asses whipped when their little spin moves and jitter bugs don’t actually work against an NFL linebacker that’s 50 pounds heavier and 20% faster than the guys they worked out with in college.

Bush has skills. He MIGHT be the next Barry Sanders or Gale Sayers, as everyone likes to point out. But EVERY goddamn draft there’s “the next Bruce Smith” and “the next Brett Favre” and “the next LT”. But until someone is in a training camp, $15M later, you just don’t know. Peter Warrick, Ryan Leaf, Courtney Brown, Aundray Bruce – these guys all had elite skills at the college level and couldn’t translate them for whatever reason.

So my draft philosophy is that you draft for production and measureables, not for flash. Bush simply has not shown that he can run between the tackles or carry the ball 25 times a game. I’m not saying he can’t, but do you blow the #1 overall pick on the assumption a guy can do something he hasn’t done? I wouldn’t.

Now, my philosophy leaves a lot on the table. I wouldn’t have drafted Tomlinson so high since he came from an option offense and the NFL is littered with option backs that had a hard time converting to the NFL. I wouldn’t have drafted Vick except maybe in the second round. I wouldn’t have drafted Urlacher or McNabb (option QB).

I also would not have drafted Leaf, Couch, Akili Smith, Dewayne Robertson (#4 overall pick and he was SECOND TEAM All-SEC?), Kyle Boller, and Mike Mamula in the first round.

My system is pretty easy to use retroactively to see how well I would have done, and I think it holds up pretty well. Yes, the occasional Div-IIA bad-ass wouldn’t get picked high, and the occasional college workhorse that didn’t pan out (Dayne) would get selected, but I think overall it works.

BTG-

Bush simply has not shown that he can run between the tackles or carry the ball 25 times a game. I’m not saying he can’t, but do you blow the #1 overall pick on the assumption a guy can do something he hasn’t done? I wouldn’t.

Are you serious? Have you considered the possibility that Bush could be an effective NFL player without carrying the ball 25 times or running between the tackles? Yes, if a team drafts him and then uses him like Eddie George, he will be a bust.

His skill set looks one hell of a lot like Marshall Faulk from where I’m standing, and I think Faulk had a pretty successful career.

Sure, but then he’s a third down back or a situational player. If he can’t run between the tackles he’s pretty much fucking useless as a primary back. Even Warrick Dunn can pound it between the tackles.

Yes, if a team drafts him and then uses him like Eddie George, he will be a bust.

You mean, drafts him as a running back?

His skill set looks one hell of a lot like Marshall Faulk from where I’m standing, and I think Faulk had a pretty successful career.

His skill set also looks a lot like Trung Canidate and John Avery as well. You just can’t tell.

Faulk has about 15 pounds on him as well, and in the NFL the difference between a 200 and 215 pound RB is pretty substantial.

But using Faulk as the benchmark – he was heavier and wasn’t splitting carries, just as good a receiver, same type of speed, but didn’t have quite the same shiftiness.

Stat wise – 433 career college carries for Bush, 766 career college carries for Faulk (over 3 seasons for each). Faulk led the nation in rushing two years in a row, whereas Bush hasn’t lead his own TEAM in rushing yards.

And Bush had 95 receptions vs. 82 receptions for Faulk – and Faulk missed at least 4 1/2 games in college due to cracked ribs and other assorted injuries.

Faulk had three knocks coming out in college – played for a small program (SDSU); was small; and had some injuries. There were some attitude concerns as well.

Faulk set or tied something like 19 collegiate records. Only second player to gain 3000+ yards rushing in his first two seasons. Blah blah blah.

Bush simply doesn’t have NEAR the accomplishments of Faulk, and Faulk sure as hell didn’t have Matt Leinart passing (although I guess having Darnay Scott on the team offset that…maybe not).

Again, let’s be clear, I’m not saying that Bush will suck. I’m saying that he simply isn’t worth that high a pick and that he’s a tremendous risk with lots of upside and a huge bust potential. He’s unproven to play in the capacity expected of him.

If the Texans take him instead of Ferguson, they’re idiots. Ferguson is a blue chip OT and the Texans have needed one since they were created. RBs are a dime a dozen, OTs are WAY harder to find.

Uh, so is VY a top five pick or an anywhere-in-the-first-2-rounds pick? And using your “system,” who are all the first round dudes (and second round, or have you dropped that idea) going ahead of Bush? You guys and your systems, you’re killing me.

Yeah, but if you take out the 45-yard long run, he averged only 7 ypc. :)

Yeah, and if you take out that wayward lateral/fumble in the Rose Bowl, he’s topped 100 yards in that game and probably given USC the win. <demented Rob Beschizza smiley>

The point isn’t that I think VY should be picked over Bush, but rather that I don’t think Bush should be a first-rounder regardless of where anyone else goes.

But since they, you know, are in the same draft, that’s what would happen if things went your way. The thing is, you have no means to substantiate your argument - other than he was the star player on the team that played yours in the Rose Bowl, the one who has gotten all the buzz (you don’t hate on Leinart because he’s been pretty quiet the whole offseason, and all the attention has been on Bush) - positive buzz, that is. Meanwhile, Lendale White (why anybody is considering picking him in the first round at this point is beyond me - he had a pro day comparable to Maurice Clarett; he was fat, lumpy, refused to run crying hamstring, and only did one more bench press than the punter) and VY (for his laughably bad Wonderlic score and inept handling by his family as his managerial staff - was Master P booked up?) have been getting pounded in the press.

And you can put away your pimp hand for BTG, because you have yet to admit shit about homerism. Vince Young is Michael Jordan? You sound loonier than Ryan “The Lombardi Should Be Stripped From Pittsburgh” A, who is already wearing his Seattle Seahawks Superbowl Champs T-Shirt.

Hey man, never confuse bitterness for looniness!

I’m sorry, but you are wrong here. Bush is incredibly strong. He bench pressed 225 24 times!!! Go ahead, check the other RBs and their bench presses. That was 9 times more than Lendale White, just as a comparison. He’s strong. He runs over guys all the time, and he has a mean stiff arm. Yes, elusiveness is his best trait, but it’s not his only one. And Faulk, Sanders, etc. all translated their moves to the pro game. Bush seems to be even better than they were in college. Plus, he’s a smart kid who works hard and shows respect for the game. He interviews well and does what his coach tells him to do. I think he easily deserves to be the number one pick in this draft and I will be ecstatic if he somehow falls to the Titans at 3.

BTW, NO NFL QB runs the ball 30 times a game. That’s so rare it’s silly to use it as a potential knock on Bush. Most average in the low 20s, many in the upper teens. Bush could run the ball 20 times a game easily, and get you the 100 yards you want out of your RB.

Not behind the Texans’ offensive line he can’t.