TMQ on SUV safety issues

That claim is far from proven. Look, obviously the government should mandate certain things once there is sufficient evidence to show there is a public safety issue.

But first of all, there isn’t enough evidence, and second of all, what I was trying to point out was that he based his arguments partially on his own PERSONAL OPINIONS of the PSYCHOLOGY of SUV drivers!

That’s not science! It’s hysteria! Just like I said before! But now with more exclamation points so you don’t miss my point again!

I’m more than willing to debate the merits of the vehicles and the possibility for legislation, but I categorically refuse to do it based on emotion and speculation.

That claim is far from proven. Look, obviously the government should mandate certain things once there is sufficient evidence to show there is a public safety issue.

But first of all, there isn’t enough evidence, and second of all, what I was trying to point out was that he based his arguments partially on his own PERSONAL OPINIONS of the PSYCHOLOGY of SUV drivers!

That’s not science! It’s hysteria! Just like I said before! But now with more exclamation points so you don’t miss my point again!

I’m more than willing to debate the merits of the vehicles and the possibility for legislation, but I categorically refuse to do it based on emotion and speculation.[/quote]

Who’s the one using caps-lock?

First of all, he isn’t just making accusations about the psychology of people who drive SUVs: he’s citing auto industry research about the psychology of people who drive SUVs. I think the legal principle is “character of the defendant.” Do you think the people who market SUVs don’t understand their market?

For example:

Bradsher cites an SUV marketing specialist explaining that part of the sell line is, “If there is a crash, I want the other guy to die.”

“They tend to be people who are insecure and vain. They are frequently nervous about their marriages and uncomfortable about parenthood. They often lack confidence in their driving skills. Above all, they are apt to be self- centered and self-absorbed, with little interest in their neighbors.” This is Bradsher’s summary of the auto industry’s own marketing research about SUV buyers, and he adduces numerous on-the-record comments from auto-marketing gurus to back this up. One such wise man, named Clotaire Rapaille, tells the Big Three that people buy SUVs “because they want to look as menacing as possible.” It is perhaps not startling that rather than trying to alter these buyer proclivities, the manufacturers of SUVs have tried to encourage them. There are lots of self-centered and self-absorbed people with little interest in their neighbors. Somebody finally made a class of vehicles designed to bring out the worst in them.

Many SUVs, such as the Durango, have been consciously engineered to look as threatening as possible, with auto companies using focus groups and other techniques documented in High and Mighty to determine which features and styling cues suggest an anti-social message and then zeroing in on them. The styling goal for the oversized Dodge Ram mega-pickup was “a vehicle that would make other motorists want to get out of your way.” Cadillac markets the Escalade with photography staged to make it appear to be an armored combat vehicle, over the huge-type sell line Yield.

In other words, if these statements are wrong, take it up with the market execs in Detriot, then Bradshaw, the author of the book, and finally Easterbrook, the author of the article. The author’s conclusions are pretty tame compared to that of the people on the inside, aren’t they?

Of course, character of the defendant only matters in sentencing, so if you think the conclusion from data that “SUVs are more dangerous both to themselves and everyone else on the road” is wrong, it’s irrelevant. I haven’t seen a serious refutation of the numbers, however; everything’s unsupported character assassination and statistical crimes, like that NRO article.

Edit: And it’s not like “SUVs are safe for the driver, but not for everyone else” is true, either. They’re a net loss for everyone.

It’s a fact that SUVs are classified as trucks and thereby exempt from the same laws as regular vehicles, particularly when it comes to safty. It’s also a fact that the reason trucks had separate laws was because they were, at the time, primarily used for business purposes. It’s also a fact they’re selling zillions of them to people for personal as opposed to business use.

Okay, I let emotion get to me and used “zillions” in place of “millions.”

So is a poor guy who drives an '85 Chevy Caprice wagon that gets 15 mpg as “evil” as a “yuppie” who drives a new Ford Explorer that gets 15 mpg? The anti-SUV folks really aren’t clear on where the “evil” lines are drawn.

The guy driving the '85 caprice doesn’t have a choice.

Do you want to use 25% less gas? I normally get 300 miles per tank, but I can get 400 miles per tank simply by coasting in neutral when I’m not accelerating, and turning off my engine at long red lights.

Yes, you’re right. They are based on car chassis. The Toyota Rav-4, for example, looks like an SUV, but remove the outer unibody and you’re left with parts from Toyota passenger vehicles such as the Camry and Celica.

Is my Rav-4 an SUV? I bought one in '98. It has a modest 113 HP, inline 4 engine. I normally get about 20 MPG driving around town. I think it’s because the shape isn’t very aerodynamic, not because the engine sucks. As a comparison, my dad’s car has a whopping 290HP V-8 engine, but it gets over 30 MPG on the highway because the car has one of the lowest drag coefficients available in a consumer auto.

[size=2]edit: I changed “design” to “car”[/size]

I’m not sure the latter is actually a good thing. Your car generates more pollution at startup than any other time, I believe, and it’s certainly not doing the engine much good in terms of wear and tear (though it’s obviously not cooling off in that time).

Is my Rav-4 an SUV?

Probably for marketing purposes, but people are really talking about your Explorers, Excursions, Escalades, etc. Yeesh, what’s with the “E’s?”

I bought one in '98. It has a modest 113 HP, inline 4 engine. I normally get about 20 MPG driving around town. I think it’s because the shape isn’t very aerodynamic, not because the engine sucks.

It’s probably more because it’s too heavy for its size, so it’s causing the low mileage on that small engine. Aerodynamics don’t come into play until you’re past, say, 50 MPH.

As a comparison, my dad’s car has a whopping 290HP V-8 engine, but it gets over 30 MPG on the highway because the car has one of the lowest drag coefficients available in a consumer auto.

But that’s highway, not around town. That low drag only helps at speed. That V8 probably sucks up gas like crazy in various stoplight grand prix.

Depends on the issue. If you’re solely talking about mileage, they’re equally bad. If you’re talking about environment, that Caprice is probably a bigger polluter. If you’re talking about safety, the SUV is problematic.

Of course there’s the issue of choice; as Jason noted, the person driving the old clunker probably has less of a choice than someone that just plunked down $40K for an Explorer. The owner of the clunker could still make a “better” choice, though.

Guestacy’s right: cars produce a ton of pollution & suck a ton of gas at startup. Hybrids don’t have this problem (they spin up to speed using just the battery), but they’re the exception.

Hmmm. Well, poo. I thought I read an EPA report that said engine start-up used the same amount of fuel as 30 seconds of idling. I gotta get me one of them Honda Civic hybrids, then.

So, most of my gains come from conserving momentum, then. For instance, I brake early when coming up to red lights so that I’m still going at at least 20mph by the time it turns green again.

Hmmm. But come to think of it, now I remember reading somewhere that an idling engine wears 2x faster than an engine at speed (because the fluids aren’t pumping as fast?). So I guess coasting in neutral is a wash. You gain 25% fuel efficiency, and wear out your engine faster.

Edit:

I take that back. I just googled, and found out that all the damage is due to the low temperature of an idling engine. Well, if you’re coasting for 30 seconds, that’s not gonna lower your temperature too much. I also read that 175 degrees F is hot enough for efficient engine operation. I always thought it was much higher than that.

Edit: Hmm. I think they were talking about diesel engines in long haul trucks. I don’t know how much of thiis applies to gasoline engines.

“I read it on the Internet. It must be true.”

Isn’t the problem with SUVs and indictment of the driver’s skill more than a problem with the vehicle? If you’re driving something with a high center of gravity, a good driver would know not to screech around corners.

BTW, I can’t stand SUVs for the fact that most of the folks I know who drive them fit into the psychological stereotype listed above. They appear to be designed somewhat for intimidation, as stated – which is probably why they’ve been under such attack lately. It’s our natural instinct to beat the shit out of the bully.

Sure, and 99% of drivers aren’t any good. Or some other arbitrary percentage. We wouldn’t need most safety devices in our cars if everyone was a better driver.