Torture thread 2 - now with added Jesus

[shift6]

Well if a Pew survey draws conclusions about the general population of the US based on 1200 tallies, why is this not similar?

[Hawkeye_Fierce]

@shift6

Well if a Pew survey draws conclusions about the general population of the US based on 1200 tallies, why is this not similar?

Voters self-select based on their concern over the issues, among other things. I assume the Pew survey made at least some attempt to be scientifically rigorous. But I don’t put much faith in these sorts of surveys anyway.

[Toddy]

@Tim_Partlett

Wow, Toddy’s a bit knee-jerk with this Muslim thing :).

I don’t think much to Brett’s comparison. America is a very modern, liberal country with many freedoms, whereas the countries in his survey are not. A more interesting comparison would be between the views of Muslims born and raised in America and their Christian counterparts. That would show the effects of religion in the equation more than the effects of living in a less advanced, less liberal society.

Okay, even taking that modernity stuff for granted – although it seems like a remarkably condescending and colonial attitude for you, Tim ;-) – you could get into a chicken/egg thing here pretty easily. Why is America so modern and liberal and free? And why are the Muslim countries surveyed here, well, not so modern and liberal and free?

But I agree that your study of Muslims in the US would be more enlightening.

@Tim_Partlett

Still, Turkey is not very liberal or advanced in Western terms, and yet only 15% of Turkish people think that violence against civilians can be justified sometimes/often. That’s compared to about 50% of American Christians who think that torture of innocents can be justified sometimes/often. On the UN’s Human Development Index, Turkey is ranked only 94th. I wonder how Christian countries nearby would score on the justification for violence against civilians, countries like Georgia, Jamaica and El Salvador?

Er, that survey didn’t say anything about “innocents.” It called the torturees “suspected terrorists” being, um, enthusiastically interrogated for “important information.” And worded like that, I don’t think the survey has anything to do with Christianity. It’s got more to do with the question leading people, both those who think Jesus is just alright with them and everybody else, to assumptions like “Jack Bauer’s gotta wire up Abdullah’s nipples or else the nuke will incinerate Fresno!”

I’m against Guantanamo Bay, think the invasion of Iraq was insane, am against Israeli treatment of Palestinians, and would like to see Lynndie England’s thumb cut off, but I’d have answered “rarely” or “sometimes” to that question, too, as asked. You seem to be assuming that the poll means that around 50% of Americans think that Abu Ghraib is A-OK or something, which I think is way, way off base.

[Destarius]

@Toddy

It’s got more to do with the question leading people, both those who think Jesus is just alright with them and everybody else, to assumptions like “Jack Bauer’s gotta wire up Abdullah’s nipples or else the nuke will incinerate Fresno!”…I’d have answered “rarely” or “sometimes” to that question, too, as asked.

Does this mean the rest of you are going to pile on Toddy too?