Timex
2949
Are you unaware of what Congress is doing, such that you perceive then to be taking no action?
KevinC
2950
I’m sorry if I’m being dense, but I’m still not seeing much of a solution. I’m seeing that you want to get from A to C but no details on how we get to C. I want to get to C as well.
In terms of holding him accountable, the House is issuing subpoenas. These are being stonewalled by the White House, which likely may end up in court. Nancy Pelosi was out in front of cameras today saying point-blank Donald Trump is involved in a coverup. New York is just about to make Trump’s state tax returns available. The House is fighting to get Trump’s federal tax returns, which will also be fought in court. How are Democrats not holding him accountable, within their power to do so?
Specifically, what steps do you want the House to be doing right now? I’m talking concrete steps, not goals like “hold Trump accountable”.
I’m not trying to be combative with you, just to be clear. From my POV the Democrats are doing something (a lot of things). Granted, they haven’t impeached him, but in my personal opinion I think there’s good reason for that: it will accomplish nothing but to empower Trump.
The court cases will continue (most will be losses for POTUS). Mueller will testify. Barr will be impeached. After that? That’s where it gets interesting.
The only way this succeeds is if you do it properly and continue to lay the foundation.
rush to impeachment now, and Trump gets off, and it is viewed as 100% a failed partisan action by the Dems.
Build the foundation by establishing a willingness to obstruct justice when just asking questions (Barr, Mnuchin, etc.), then flip those assholes and continue to build that case.
If this isn’t done right, and it is rushed, a failed impeachment will do even more harm to the nation than Trump is currently doing.
Impeachment is a process:
I think kerzain is advocating for a more naive reading of Congress’s responsibility, i.e. do the job rather than just focus on the next election. That is, governing in good faith is more important than a tactical calculus to maximize chances of a 2020 electoral win.
It could backfire but if you have legislators who are perpetually too afraid to do their jobs because they are thinking of the next election, you might say that the Emperor has already won.
I’m not sure I agree with this concern as weighed against the proximate terror of a 2nd Trump term (especially in light of the fact that we are hurtling toward global uninhabitability at this particular moment in history). But I am very sympathetic to it.
I doubt not that the conflation of “governing” with “winning the next election” is a systemic flaw in democracy generally, but the flaw may be worsening.
MikeJ
2954
While impeachment is almost certain to fail in the sense that Trump won’t be convicted and removed from office, I hope it can be done well enough that it is clear to let’s say 70% of the population that he is only being kept in office through sheer partisan hackery.
Timex
2955
This is how you do the job.
That won’t happen unless it is done right. But if done right, it can be a clean sweep (Trump resigns like Nixon, and is convicted elsewhere after Pence issues his toady-esque pardon).
Note that for Watergate, it wasn’t until almost 2 years after the Deep Throat Tip andNixon tried to obstruct justice that Impeachment was brought up in the House Judiciary Committee. Nixon was more popular, but had less entrenched propaganda-drenched supporters (some with actual ethics). While Trump is less popular, he is more popular with his base, including apparently the entire Senate GOP.
Figure the Mueller Report and Barr’s obstruction is about the same point as Nixon’s ordering the FBI director to keep out.
This needs to be broken down and methodically ground into dust PERMANENTLY, not haphazardly hit with a hammer for a whack-a-mole game.
Nixon timeline: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Watergate_scandal
You know what they could do is this: they could slowly but systematically build a case by, say, subpoenaing Trump’s tax records and financial documentation. While citing Trump WH officials for contempt, they could also bring in lesser officials under subpoena to testify. They could bring in Mueller to testify.
They could also, through all of this steady building, allow the President and his AG to continue to stonewall, obfuscate, and in every other way obstruct things so plainly that the American public can’t help but notice that it is happening.
They could proceed to through the investigations of the SDNY and EDVA to subpoena those witnesses and evidence as they become available as well.
And as each rock is turned over and as each domino falls, they could slowly, but steadily and surely keep laying the foundations where impeachment becomes less and less a partisan thing. Where it becomes a thing that starts to gain popularity with the general public.
I think that’s what’s happening. I think there’s a sense that the Mueller report itself isn’t enough. That a transparent case showing obstruction, showing corruptions and wrongdoing far beyond the narrow confines of Russian interference needs to be shown. And I think they’re doing that.
Also, as each step is taken, and each rock is turned over, rats are likely to leave the sinking ship faster and faster, and the pressure makes people do stupid and reckless things.
Like this:
Timex
2959
No, if you really the transcript, the part right before that makes it kind of obvious that he’s thanking about those calls hypothetically, and actually saying that someone found out that they didn’t happen.
And for a year, I heard about phone calls that went to a special number. Unauthorized. And it would have been my son Don, who’s a good young man who’s gone through hell. And they were calls that must have been made by him before and after the meeting, three calls.
After massive study and work, they actually found who made the calls. One was a friend of ours, a real estate developer. Great guy. Most of you know him. Nice guy. Loves our country. And the other one was the head of NASCAR, two of them.
So of the three calls that were so horrible, that he had a meeting and he called me and then he had the meeting after and he made two more calls — and they were written about like this little — little lines, couple of lines. Nobody wanted to admit it.
I think this is the crux of the issue for a lot of people. I think the “impeach now” folks are scared that your popularity index will never float past a number that guarantees Trump can’t win 2020 and therefore the GOP won’t abandon him. As long as Trump remains “their guy” for 2020 GOP voters will just pull the lever for him in key states because he’s better than socialism, Obamacare, foreign hordes, and he sticks it to libs.
Timex
2962
If you get public support over 50% for impeachment, then you’ll see the Democrats do it. And really, that’s the right time to do it.
And if you can’t get that public support, then what are you doing?
Rather than impeach right now, how about the House works on creating a jail and then starts putting people in it who refuse lawful subpoenas? Ratchet up the pressure. Bring more evidence to light. Let the public see more.
ShivaX
2964
I think that is the plan. Which is fine, I guess, but Trump has already done over a dozen things that would be impeachable. I think the American people are too stupid to deal with impeaching him every week for various things as they’re discovered so maybe there is some sense to just getting a big mountain of stuff and dropping the bomb all at once, but then when the Senate invariably doesn’t care, all those things stop mattering anyway.
Timex
2966
“ThE dEmoCraTs arEN’t dOinG AnyThINg.”
KevinC
2967
Let’s just pull the trigger now before we do any of that groundwork. I know we only have one single bullet, but DO SOMETHING.
This is like when half the party is Lawful Good and half Neutral Good, right?
