It’s not just that, they have to be sure that 60-75% of the populace is on board, despite the right wing propaganda.
Impeachment without GOP support in a lot of places is actually worse for the country than Trump just getting voted out of office and charged.
If he’s impeached and the “it’s just the democrats playing politics” narrative wins, then this situation is only going to get worse (and it’s freaky bad now, with one - party tax policy being written to punish voters in blue states, and policy being created just to anger the other side and give your side something to cheer about).
While it appears necessary with all the law breaking, abuses of power and collaborating with the fucking Russians!, Impeachment which doesn’t help address the underlying problems will actually do more long term harm to the constitutional union than Trump can possibly do.
Kerzain is right the Democrats aren’t doing shit. I want to believe as much as anyone but they’re basically impotent. They’re saying “You better show up or else!” And “Don’t lie to us or you’re in BIG BIG trouble!!”
Lol. That’s it. They get lied to, people ignore their subpoenas, and they won’t do shit about it.
KevinC
2971
So what do want them to do?
Yeah, why don’t they pull out their SECRET CONSTITUTIONAL POWERS AND ORDER THE ARMY TO ARREST THE PRESIDENT.
Fucking Wankers.
They can’t do anything except made angry noises.
I mean maybe they could arrest Barr or McGahn. Charge them with contempt. But that’d be too risky. Don’t wanna upset Trump or McConnell they might not be cooperative after that.
KevinC
2974
So you and Kerzain keep saying “they’re not doing shit” but you still didn’t answer what you want them to do. Where’s your solution?
And as for not doing shit, as Timex just posted:
You’re not addressing the part where they get ordered to do stuff and they say No. Just because a judge said to do something doesn’t mean Trump & Co will do it. They’ve already said “We don’t agree with that judge, that’s an Obama judge.” That’s it, they will ignore it.
I don’t know what to do about that except wage a war of public opinion. The Democrats are afraid to do it, and the Republicans are not shy at all about it.
KevinC
2976
How are they not waging a war for public opinion? What do you think all the subpoenas, tax records, court battles, etc. are for?
If Trump ignores both Congress and the Courts at will, and there is no repercussion either legally or politically, we live in a autocracy and there’s nothing anyone can do besides armed revolt.
Banzai
2977
I think if trump wears a tan suit public opinion will swing to impeach.
More seriously, nothing is going to move fox viewer sentiment to impeachment because they will never hear the facts of trumps wrongdoing.
With the GOP running the senate, we can only expect impeachment to happen if the house has such a long process with so much information of wrongdoing happening day in and day out for weeks and months that even fox news viewers start to hear the facts. The dems can do the exact same thing with hearings, however, and not give the GOP any possible ammunition with a partisan impeachment vote.
Let the hearings play out, see what happens next, and if the dems throw up their hands and say ‘well, we cant do anything more cause elections’, then lets please get millions of people marching and complain about dem spinelessness. Until then, keep trumps feet to the fire with hearings, keep the news focused on the endless wrongdoings, and public sentiment will change. Then pounce.
They said no to tax returns and financial information, and yet they have gotten financial information from multiple banks and appear to be well on the way to the tax returns.
Mueller appears well on the way to testimony.
Other things are also happening.
Look at the Stone indictment - that won’t even be in court for at least another 6 months. Doing things legally takes time. They’ve done a lot, considering they have only had power for four months and had to deal with the idiotic government shutdown for a month.
“fix my car please”
“sure, what do you want us to fix, please tell us how we should fix it”
We leave the detail to mechanics, we just want it fixed. Surely the how’s and whys can be left to the professional politicians, their advisors and legal teams?
KevinC
2980
The more accurate analogy would be:
“I completely wrecked my car, fix it with the limited tools you have on hand right now.”
“Okay, wow, this is going to be a project. I’m going to have to get to work on A and B before I can get to C… and we gotta go all the way to Z”
“WHY ARE YOU WORKING ON A YOU SPINELESS FUCK, I TOLD YOU TO GET TO Z.”
If people are going to bitch and moan about how the Democrats are doing it wrong, they should be able to articulate how they think it should be done.
Couple ideas:
Announce that impeachment proceedings have begun. Keep doing all this stuff, but toward the goal of impeachment. Tell the public you’re working on it instead of “I dunno all this awful stuff so far isn’t that bad!”
Arrest the people ignoring your subpoenas. Compel testimony, or make them invoke the 5th or Executive Privilege. Show you have some fighting spirit and won’t roll over when fat old men say no.
Make everything public. Broadcast it all on every news network that will air it. Make Trump’s life hell.
The complaint is all these shitty things have happened and Pelosi and her crew are like, “Oh well nothing we can do.” We know Trump obstructed justice. Say it, hammer it home, pursue it.
He’s going to win in 2020 again and Democrats will lose seats in the house if this keeps up. Fight back. The country elected you to fight back. If you don’t they’re going to stay home next time because what’s the fucking point?
I would like to upboat you please.
Its important for us to both have an understanding of what CAN be done, and what IS being done, and perhaps why some things that can’t be done.
As I mentioned (in this thread?) there’s no strong moves that I’m aware of to enforce the congressional subpoenas. Yet…there’s been some level of concessions by the republicans, so maybe there’s more teeth there than anyone has made clear - understanding exactly why and what those bounds are might make a lot of people feel better that dems are doing what they can.
The problem with impeachment is that you only get one shot, and failure will just make the administration more bold. Trump thinks he can sometimes get around the rule of law. Failed impeachment means he’ll KNOW there’s nothing left to hold him accountable.
Again, the issue for a lot of folks is that somewhere in your analogy (maybe M or P) the mechanics are going to wait on the people in the other car admitting the accident was their fault and approving the bill. If they can’t get that sign-off, Z never happens.
Timex
2984
They can’t just ignore it. They can appeal it. They haven’t directly violated direction from the courts yet. If this stuff gets up to the supreme court (or an appeal is rejected), then the rubber hits the road. If Trump still refuses to do what the COURT says, then we’ll have a problem. But at that point, your’e going to see widespread support for impeachment.
This process isn’t instantaneous. But that’s how the system works.
Governing is slow. It’s work. You can’t just do whatever you want.
This is such horseshit he already believes this and it’s 100% true as long as Republicans control the Senate. Why pretend that’s going to change? The only way it changes is to put the fear of the public into republicans.
When people showed up to Mitch McConnell’s dinner and yelled at him that spooked them. Get people angry. Get the public going after these fucks, make them know they won’t have a moment’s peace or a job in a few years if they don’t put their country first.
KevinC
2986
I just don’t agree with this characterization at all. The Democrats aren’t just sitting around but they are limited in what they can do by being a minority party that only controls the House.
Why can’t they just ignore it?
I for one appreciate @kerzain’s righteous anger and firmly believe that we would all be better off if more people shared his well-placed disgust at the shitheads who purport to represent us but have accomplished very little to impede the dismantling of the Republic.
Fuck them. They get nothing.
