At what point do we decide that the strategy of not holding impeachment hearings because we can get the dirt out through other hearings is just not working?
KevinC
3394
I think we’re at that point. I have been hesitant about impeachment due to the Senate, but it’s time to step up and do something.
I don’t know why you’d think witnesses would testify in impeachment hearings when they won’t in regular hearings. We’re largely waiting for the courts to rule that the House subpoenas are valid.
Trump’s own lawyers have argued they’d have to, arguing that impeachment proceedings are a legitimate legislative function unlike these other efforts to engage in law enforcement.
Do I believe Trump’s lawyers won’t change that tune? No, I’m sure they will. So I’ll add that they need to launch impeachment proceedings and aggressively enforce subpoenas by finding people in contempt and jailing them. They have that power, and should use it.
Edit: Also, no more voluntary appearance deals. Issue subpoenas and swear witnesses in. No more private testimony. Get the cameras on these people, and make them obstruct live and publicly.
The power of the House to detain people in the face of opposition from the Justice Department is a fiction that no one want to dispel, and it would be dispelled if the House tried to use it. Let’s hope we can get to the other side of this administration while the power of court orders is still non-fictional.
It is not a fiction. It is a matter of law, endorsed by SCOTUS and exempt from judicial interference, and there isn’t any mechanism for dispelling it.
If it is not fictional, what will happen to the individual to be detained if that individual refuses to go along with the detention (I believe in the only case where this actually happened, the subject played along)? What are the consequences that will follow in the case that the Justice Department disagrees with the legitimacy of the detention?
The Capital Police answer to Congress, not the DoJ, and they operate a jail. They can arrest someone and jail them, whether that person plays along or not. Unless you think the DoJ plans to effect a prison break?
I once thought that too, and was corrected. I’ll have to see if I can find citations.
The Capitol Police have holding cells in their headquarters on D Street. Or, so says the internet.
https://washingtonpeacecenter.org/riskarrest
KevinC
3403
Yeah but knowing America, those cells are probably already filled with immigrant children.
Sharpe
3404
Congress has already tipped it’s hand on this issue: recently the House Dems voted to give the committee chairs power to sue in court to enforce the Congressional subpoenas. So it’s clear that the House has no intention of attempting to directly enforce their own subpoenas; they are going to ask the courts to do it for them. I believe Nadler recently said such a suit is in process to be filed against Don McGahn and I believe they plan on doing the same to Hope Hicks.
The problem I have with this, I have absolutely no idea what the courts will do with this. In a normal court proceeding, subpoenas arise out of a court case or grand jury of some type, which is a court proceeding, and the court has the power to enforce those subpoenas, including ordering the local law enforcement to detain people for contempt, seize property to satisfy judgments and so on. In other words, in a normal court proceeding, the “rubber meets the road” when the Sheriff comes and takes your stuff or detains your ass. And the power for the court to order that arises out of a proceeding that is before the court, within the jurisdiction of the court.
So what are the federal courts going to do with subpoenas arising out of Congressional proceedings that are not actually federal court cases? Are the courts going to use their own enforcement powers? I could be wrong but I feel like a)even reasonable judges might feel there is no constitutional basis for the judicial branch to do Congress’ job in this scenario b)given the GOP bent of the higher courts, the odds of Congress winning these issues long term seem laughable to me. Unless there is some doctrine of comity or something between Congress and the judicial branch I don’t know about, I really don’t see how Congress is going to get the courts to enforce these subpoenas for them, and Congress clearly has no stomach (and not much in the way of real world mechanisms) to enforce themselves. So basically, unless Congress impeaches, this is all a joke.
Keep in mind, the level of defiance of Congress by Trump is unprecedented: in the past no executive has wanted to defy Congress in this blatant and ridiculous way for two reasons: Congress can impeach, and Congress has the power of the purse. But right now Trump is displaying essentially zero fear of Congress on either front, and I have to say, given Pelosi’s stances, I see why that is.
OK, having done some actual research–
The Capitol Police are indeed not in the Justice Department, do have holding cells, and ultimately answer to the House Sergeant-at-Arms and the Senate Sergeant-at-Arms (who is Chairman this year). So the House by itself pretty much can’t do anything with the Capitol Police. Only if you got the Senate to concur would you be able to get the Capitol Police to do anything not part of their routine job description. So the Capitol Police are not going to help you enforce contempt citations from the House.
The House can tell the Sergeant-at-Arms to arrest someone, but if the target is unwilling to come along then there’s basically nothing further that can be done to enforce it, absent Senate or Justice Department cooperation. So a fictional power.
Matt_W
3406
The House Sergeant-at-Arms serves directly under the authority of the Speaker of the House, has the same law enforcement authority as the Capital Police, and can himself effect arrests for the commission of felonies (or any violation of law committed in his presence.) Unfortunately, contempt of Congress is not a felony.
Not sure if this was posted already, but this is a very interesting tweet thread from Marcy Wheeler. Texts between Manafort and Hannity.
Another good thread on this.
rowe33
3410
Hannity: u up?
The actual texts are some weird shit.
So I guess Hannity isn’t just an act but he actually believes all the bs he crows about?
The Capitol Police have an oversight board of 4 people which includes the Senate & House Sergeants-at-Arms, and it’s true that the Senate SaA is the current chair, but I don’t know why that makes you think the Capitol Police would not enforce a contempt citation from the House. Maybe you know something about how this governance process works that isn’t so obvious, but I doubt that, since this morning you didn’t even know the Capitol Police worked for Congress, not the DoJ. I say we give it a try and see what happens.
