4519

I think “pro-government” is an odd framing. I’d say rather that we recognize that there are many problems society faces and many opportunities society has that require collective action. Governments, like markets, are tools that a society wields towards the end it wants. Liberals are willing to try to come up with creative ideas for how to wield those tools, while constraining them so they don’t wield us. Conservatives would rather leave government on the shelf and are content to let markets run free, sowing chaos and destruction in the process.

4520

And I find odd, you completely ignored my main point to focus on a single word. What is a government? More than practically any institution, a company, a hospital, it is a collection of people, who is actions are constrained by laws, policies, and procedures.

So why the often fierce attacks against career government employees, like the ones I mention, who are trying to do their jobs?

4521

This is a weird grouping and a weird wish. Launched a coup? WTF? And classing Mueller, who exposed the rot, with Mattis or Maguire, who clearly worked to cover it up?

‘…even after we learn that they knowingly and actively worked to help the bad guys cover up their badness.’ Sure, Jan.

4522

If you want examples of brave republicans- I can think of two in NC. Walter Jones and Howard Coble. Didn’t agree with them on anything, and they’re both dead now, but both of them would have supported impeachment- and Coble would probably have ended up like Amash.

Mueller I think was playing by rules he refused to deviate from in principle- he exposed what rot he could, and felt it was Congress’s job to act- so he gave them what he had and let them decide. I won’t pillory him for the failings of Blue Dogs.
Mattis- I don’t know how complicit he is, but I can buy him trying to do what he did in order to try and keep Trump from destroying everything. I think it would be a bad precedent to go after someone like Mattis unless you have something solid on him.

The solution to a lot of the stuff that’s been exposed now is to allow Presidents to be criminally charged while in office if it’s related to actions running the office or financial profit while in office.

4523

He seems awfully complicit in covering up / accepting the Khashoggi murder.

There doesn’t really seem to be any doubt that MBS ordered the murder and that we know that, have evidence of that.

Yes, I agree with this.

This comes back to the problem of, how do you get the question of Presidential immunity into a courtroom?

4524

the immunity is done by executive order. A federal law would reverse that immunity.

4525

Is there actually an executive order? My understanding is that it is simply a DOJ policy. But you’re right, even in that case a law would work. Though it seems crazy to me that you have to pass a law to make the President subject to law.

4526

DOJ policy would full under the category of executive order. It’s enforcement of the laws as written, which is executive domain.

4527

People who do their jobs badly should be criticized. People who do their jobs spectacularly badly - such as ADNI Maguire - are appropriate targets for “fierce attacks”.

4528

Just seems like a non-sequitur. Government only works as a tool if it operates under constraints: checks and balances, division of power, democratic elections, etc. If government officials undermine those constraints and/or break the law and/or collude with evil, they’re certainly worthy of disapprobation. Of course they are. We have to hold the people we elect and the officials they appoint accountable to our norms. Why wouldn’t we?

I don’t think I’ve read a single person on this forum castigate Mueller. Comey made some odd, bad and spectacularly consequential decisions. Mattis continues to shield Trump by invoking some weird notion of military omerta. I’m also, I admit, somewhat skeptical of assigning credence to military leaders simply because they’re decorated military leaders. Some of the worst people I’ve ever worked for were during my time in the military. Maguire, we’ll see, but it’s hard to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone involved in this administration. They’re all involved in undermining democracy.

4529

“I find it odd that on such a pro-market forum, so many people are attacking Bernie Madoff”.

4530

I am cynical, especially after Barr’s brazen misuse of his office to provide cover for Trump – although I’m probably just as cynical about the competence of the democrats for failing to hold him accountable, which let him set the false narrative that remains the source of truth for most republicans.

This administration is rotten to the core. Maquire gets no points for covering his ass from a loyalty perspective by pro-actively taking the complaint to the White House to see if maybe they want to claim privilege before he follows the law, does his fucking job and forwards it to Congress.

4531

Timeline: Trump, Giuliani, Biden, and Ukrainegate (updated)

A months-long campaign by President Donald Trump and his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani to reportedly pressure the Ukraine government to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden, Trump’s potential rival in the 2020 election, has gripped the nation’s capital. The situation escalated following the Sept. 13 revelation of an intelligence community whistleblower complaint reportedly related to a “series of events” including a phone call between President Trump and Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

As these events unfold, the aim of the chronology below is to provide a useful reference for the context and timeline on Ukraine, the roles of Joe Biden and his son Hunter there, and Trump and Giuliani’s efforts to persuade Ukraine to pursue investigations against them. We attempt to present an accurate picture of events, favorable and unfavorable to the players involved.

4532

I found on the media to be a really good listen to this week for some additional perspective. The interviews with Adam Entous was particularly interesting - he does tons of primary research and writes long articles on Hunter Biden, then sees that both FOX and MSNBC are misrepresenting the story in opposite directions. But, as one commentator says “I can write a great 10,000 word story on the subject, but people will only read the headline.”

Here’s the rundown:

  1. Tim Naftali [@TimNaftali], historian at New York University, on what the Nixon impeachment teaches us about the need for a deliberate process. Listen.

  2. Tom Devine, legal director at the Government Accountability Project, on the poor protections for intelligence community whistle-blowers. Listen.

  3. Adam Entous [@adamentous], staff writer at The New Yorker, on the patchy validity of Trump’s Hunter Biden accusations. Listen.

  4. Kyrylo Loukerenko [@K_Loukerenko], executive director at Hromadske Radio, helps us make sense of the misinformation about Ukraine. Listen.

4533

Here is a pretty good overview of the aspects of the case, from the perspective of a lawyer licensed to practice in DC

How bad is your scandal when the brief summary of the issue is 40 minutes?

Very, very bad. But this is a nicely made and digestible video containing what we already have discussed here.

4534

IMHO, it’s all the lies they’ve enabled by doing such a poor job. Not just for Trump, but for decades. Trump’s blatancy just really brings it forth.

Lying to get us into the Iraq war was a big one. Comey reopening the email investigation with zero mention of the Trump - Russia investigation. Climate change denial. Ajit Pai’s FCC and net neutrality. The “Voter fraud” fraud. Benghazi! (8 times). Immigration demonization with no e-verify. The list of lies and misinformation which gets enabled goes on and on.

4535
4536

As if Trump would have any non-white people in the White House anyway!

4537

Rumor has it that during the witching hour you can see an image of Ben Carson haunting the dining set in the State room.

4538

Guardian: Rudy Giuliani: Ukraine sources detail attempt to construct case against Biden

As the complaint sets out, Giuliani met Lutsenko at least twice: in New York in January and in Warsaw the following month. The timing of those encounters could be important in the rapidly unfolding impeachment inquiry in Washington, as they came at a key moment for Lutsenko.

The prosecutor was facing growing criticism in Kyiv over stalled investigations into corruption. In November 2018, when Giuliani says he began to focus on the country, Lutsenko offered to resign after a young anti-corruption activist, Kateryna Handziuk, died from a sulphuric acid attack.

Lutsenko stayed in office. But the Guardian has learned that he began seeking a lifeline to the US, in the hope it might save him as difficulties back home intensified.

That lifeline was Giuliani.

“[Lutsenko] strongly needed some political ally, he believed that Giuliani could convey specific messages to Trump, and he created this message to become more interesting to the American establishment,” said a law enforcement source familiar with the Giuliani-Lutsenko connection.