I am seeing the 5th amendment trending because now that Trump has pardons Flynn, that means Flynn has to accept a guilty verdict (in order to accept the pardon) and as such he can be called to testify in hearings and is no longer allowed to plead the 5th. Some interesting stuff, but I don’t know enough about it to know if it’s accurate (or relevant) here.
Ephraim
5305
I think that this has been utterly and completely predicted by the cynics here, so there’s no real shock and therefore little active dismay. It sucks, but it pales in comparison to Trump’s ongoing destruction of the American democratic norms of peaceful transfer of power.
magnet
5306
He was pardoned of lying to investigators, so he can’t plead the Fifth if he is asked about the lies he already told. He can still plead the Fifth about other potential crimes or undiscovered lies. So, not too helpful really.
Timex
5307
Yeah, Obama pardoned James Cartwright, for the same crime, lying to the FBI.
I don’t feel like this thing with Flynn is worth getting apoplectic over.
Quaro
5308
He pled DOWN to lying. That was the whole point.
Is that clear? I haven’t seen any actual text of the pardon, but I’ve seen several commenters say (perhaps wrongly) that it is a blanket pardon for any crimes Flynn may have committed up to that moment in time.
RichVR
5310
I don’t doubt it.
Edit: This is probably a stupid question. Can a blanket pardon be given to a person not yet charged with a crime? I’m thinking of his kids.
Sure. This is the relevant text of Nixon’s pardon:
Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974.
It’s a blanket pardon for anything Nixon might have done during that date range. There need be no charges nor even any suspicion.
Please think of the children!
RichVR
5313
Yeah, that’s what I vaguely remembered. Thanks.
Flynn is a scumbag, and, frankly, a traitor. He’s guilty of more than ‘lying to the FBI’, and I don’t think the reactions are excessive, even though everyone knows it was inevitable.
What was the motivation and circumstances for Flynn lying vs Cartwright? Are the two situations in context similar?
Timex
5316
I don’t think so. The big difference compared to Flynn, is that Cartwright’s lying to the fbi didn’t really have anything to do with Obama himself.
That’s why I don’t think you can really equate the two. (I googled around and there’s no clear reason what motivated Flynn to lie to begin with.) Bottom line is the trump regime is rife with corruption (legal or otherwise) and I don’t think we’ll ever know the full extent of it.
No argument about the corruption of the administration. I think Flynn was likely guilty of a lot worse than lying to the FBI, but I guess that was the plea agreement.
I’m far more worried about the blanket pardon he is going to issue for Don Jr, Eric, Ivanka, and Melania, and 1/2 dozen cabinet members. I really want to find out what other shit they did, and I suspect a very practical DOJ under Biden, well say they’ve been pardon not going to investigate.
Maybe we can start go fund me campaign for NY AG to launch some investigations.
jpinard
5319
How can you pardon someone for crimes that haven’t yet been announced.
The same way that Ford pardon Nixon.
Sharpe
5321
I feel the need to point out that since nobody ever prosecuted Nixon, that pardon was never tested. Specifically, a pardon only has meaning if a court recognizes it as valid. The extent of the pardon power has only been tested in court in fairly limited fashion. Don’t assume a court would recognize the broad and sweeping pardons that Trump is likely to issue.
Just because Ford “issued” a pardon doesn’t mean that pardon has any legal weight; it was never tested.
Yes, the current USSC is bad, but I’m still not 100% convinced they will give a President the kind of unlimited immunity that blanket pardons, self pardons, family pardons and so on would entail.
Ford issued a piece of paper, that for political reasons was never tested in court. Ford’s pardon of Nixon has no precedential value in court. It had political meaning and also IMO provided cover for the prosecutorial cowardice of Carter’s DOJ, but that pardon, the blanket part of it specifically, has never been established as having any legal weight.
It’s like this: you can sue almost anyone in America; doesn’t mean you’ll win. Trump can pardon the Elves of Christmas or himself or whatever; doesn’t mean anything until tested in court.
I still hold out hope that the USSC Supreme Court will find that the pardon power, although broad, is not an unlimited grant of immunity and legal impunity. Given how shitty Trump is, we are likely to find out.
Thanks for the clarification. Given you are a lawyer, and I’m not, I’m cautiously optimist that you’re right and I’m not. The irony of one or more of Trump SCOTUS appointee ruling that Trump’s pardon would be overly broad, is truly a dish to savor on Thanksgiving eve.
