Kalle
1581
Yeah, but Jones felt him go limp, kept the choke, and then dropped Machida on his face from standing when Big John stopped the fight. Oh, and then evidently he had to be told by Greg Jackson to go check on him to “win some fans”. It’s hardly too much to ask to show some concern for your opponent once you’ve defeated them in such a manner.
Thongsy
1582
I feel the same way about you, but it’s happened once too many times where a guy loosens the hold after feeling a guy go out or a tap only to have his opponent continue the fight. If everybody was honorable and admit they were going to sleep or tapping when it happened this probably wouldn’t be a problem. But you go till the Ref stops you, whether it’s a knockout or submission.
Kalle
1583
I’m just annoyed at the casual way Jones said it. Like it was no big deal that Machida went limp, and the way he treated him after the fight was stopped certainly didn’t seem like he cared about Machida’s well-being even for a second.
Thongsy
1584
Oh I didn’t see the fight so I can’t comment on how he acted. Yea that would probably annoyed me too.
Doesn’t really seem that bad. The ref was there the whole time, Jones let go IMMEDIATELY when the ref told him to, the ref was reaching in to grab Machida so Jones was stepping back out of the way.
In fact, if Jones did much more than let go and back up, it’s easy to get in shit for not letting go fast enough.
And blood chokes like that are pretty benign compared to everything else that happens. If I have my choice of losing a monitored fight to a joint lock sub, TKO, KO, or passing out, I’ll take passing out EVERY TIME, without a doubt.
Absolutely, I only started BJJ about 6 months ago, but if I’m caught in a joint lock I tap as soon as it’s clear I’m not getting out and almost as soon as the pressure begins. A choke I might fight a little bit more to see if I can wriggle out. One hyperextended elbow was more than enough to teach me I don’t want any more of that!
The issue that people are raising is that maybe Jones could have lowered him to the ground, rather than just dropping him like a sack of potatoes. I can see that as a more respectful move, but I can also see him reacting to Big John telling him to let go and just instinctively letting him drop.
At first thought this seems reasonable, but if you think about it it’s clearly not. Jones was supporting Machida’s body weight with the choke – both arms were in the choke. So if he lets go of the choke, Machida drops. If he sets him down gently without letting go, he holds onto the choke on the way down and can potentially lead to a brawl, sanctions, etc. because he didn’t let go when the ref told him to.
In every other fight I’ve ever seen with a standing guillotine like that the guy lets go and backs up immediately, that’s just what you do. You don’t cradle them to the ground because it’s just not practical.
If anything, I think it was unfortunate that the ref happened could only see the left arm and not the right when it dropped, as he probably could have stopped it a second or so earlier. But every aspect of that fight seemed legitimate and honorably conducted. You don’t have to be fighting Chael Sonnen to strictly adhere to the practices that protect your win.
Machida did his best and it was a good plan; it was nice to see him land the kind of hits that Jones is famous for neutralizing, and it makes a case that you don’t necessarily need a freakish physique to compete against someone like that. But I have a tough time seeing how the fight wasn’t going decidedly against him the longer it went since it didn’t seem like he was getting as many shots as he would want against Jones’ legs. He’s exactly the kind of striker that could be fast and accurate enough to punish that part of the body without having to take the risks that Rampage had to.
Also watching Tito get beat like a drum was probably the most bracing moment of the evening, right up until CRACK. I couldn’t believe the weight difference Big Nog was up against. I mean, I know why it was there, but that really sucks against a guy who’s a proficient wrestler. And still, for a moment there I thought he had him.
Whatta card.
I think what the whole debate actually boils down to is that people like Machida, but somehow Jones is deeply unpopular. God knows why he generates the sheer amount of bile that he does, but there is something about him that fans seem not to like. He could have cradled him down, tucked him up with a blanket and put a kiss on his forehead and he would still be being called names.
Kalle
1590
I think the whole Jones thing seems to have gotten a bit out of hand. I mean, I’d much rather talk about the amazing fights and Jones is a phenomenal fighter. But there’s just something about him that rubs me the wrong way. I can’t put my finger on it and it definitely doesn’t get in the way of appreciating what he does in the cage but it’s there.
Until this fight I never really knew that Jones was so deeply unpopular. My exposure to him has been through coaching/technique oriented interviews and magazines and if nothing else it had me rooting for him because his story is so different.
Yeah I always felt that perhaps Rogan and others were overdoing it by talking about his status as a phenom for days before every fight but the idea that a smart, gifted fighter who isn’t shit-talker is unpopular is surprising. I guess people have to start losing every now and then before they can be regarded as acceptable fighters. Thanks a lot, Rocky.
Jones isn’t unpopular - that’s a silly assertion, and he doesn’t have the rep of a douchebag like Bisping or the Diaz brothers.
Jones did nothing wrong, unlike the fighters who celebrate after brutal knockouts when their victims look dead (like Gonzaga after the Crocop knockout). Being put to sleep is as gentle a way to get taken out of a fight as it gets.
Thank you for your kind words Desslock, which are very useful in maintaining a decent conversation. Looking at Sherdog forums, amongst others, shows that he is, at the very least, extremely polarizing, with (I would say) the greater number falling on the ‘dislike’ side.
Yeah, sherdog is where I saw a lot of the initial Jones hate.
Browsing the internet shows a lot of people coming out against him as well.
I think it’s largely because he doesn’t seem to interview very well, in addition to the fact that he’s dominating ‘fan favourite’ fighters like Rampage, Shogun and now Machida. Rampage and Shogun in particular are favourites among the hardcore, largely due to their PRIDE days. It’s hard to see them being put to the sword in such devastating fashion I think.
Machida’s a fan favorite? He drinks pee! Pee-drinkers get knocked the fuck out!
Jones comes across to a lot of people as fake. Specifically, that he’s trying to portray a quiet, humble personality when he’s actually an arrogant ass. I have no idea if that’s accurate or not, but I can at least get where folks are coming from. It’s not the cockiness, but the combination of that with the perception that he’s trying to pretend that he’s not.
Personally, I suspect he just doesn’t have very good soft people skills with adrenaline running high and/or cameras shoved in his face.
I enjoy his fights, as he’s crazy talented and has an exciting style.
I don’t really understand how anyone can like Shogun - he’s probably my least favorite fighter - of course, my introduction to him was his unimpressive loss to Forrest and his dreadful win against Mark Coleman.
Kalle
1600
A good article comparing Shogun to Jones, Shogun had a spectacular run in Pride and while his UFC debut was middling he already had a very impressive record.
There’s also the Pride nostalgia factor. I still get chills when I hear the Pride music.
I have to ask, when you say you were first introduced to Shogun with his loss to Forrest, were you also introduced to Wanderlei with his loss to Chuck Liddell?
