1681

So BJ Penn is completely and totally retired now, as he should be. He looked absolutely terrible against Frankie Edgar - one of my friends joked that it looked like he forgot how to fight. I would love to see Urijah Faber vs. Edgar now. It probably should have been them coaching against each other on TUF originally anyway. Chael Sonnen’s legacy and future within the sport have taken a major, major hit too, as he failed two drug tests and was subsequently released from his analyst role with Fox and the UFC. The first failure he had a (weak) excuse for, but it doesn’t seem like he has any reason for failing the second beyond, you know, being a cheater.

It seems like there’s a UFC every weekend these days, sometimes even two. And while I love love love MMA, I’m finding it very hard to be interested in a lot of fights - the undercards are almost completely filled with guys I’ve never heard of before and aren’t particularly exciting or even dominant. Even the main events are kind of lackluster - Ryan Bader vs. OSP is headlining a fight night and I could really care less (Cerrone vs. Miller isn’t great as the main either, but should at least be fun). A lot of the media and some fans are saying that the UFC is over saturating with all these cards; thoughts?

1682

I totally forgot about this thread. Just noticed I was saying back in December that no one would be Rousey and after that Alexis Davis fight I still believe it. She is just so far ahead of the competition this point that it’s a little depressing, although still awesome to watch. She is way too strong, skilled and intense. Everyone else in WMMA looks like an amateur in comparison.

BJ Penn looked fucking terrible. He retired before the fight even started. Changing his style up so drastically so late in his career was a horrible mistake and I felt like he knew it as soon as the bell rang. Awful, awful fight.

1683

Holly Holm to the UFC.

Rousey vs. Holm could be a very interesting fight.

Totally agree about Penn. Sorry to see him go out on such a terrible performance, but it’s time. Hope he has a happy retirement.

1684

I agree 100%. There was a stretch of about six years where I only missed three UFC events, and now I could take or leave the events. It seems like a majority of the events don’t have a belt on the line, and to make matters worse only the main event is even mildly intriguing. I know MMA is in a pretty unique position where even unknown fighters, or seemingly boring match-ups can surprise us and become FotY contenders, but I think the UFC is letting too many sub-UFC caliber fighters into their cards. IMO they should have kept WEC around as their AAA league and reserved UFC for fewer but more spectacular cards… kind of like they did when WEC was still around.

1685

Well the UFC gets to decide who is UFC caliber by having them fight in the UFC, so it’s kind of funny to call someone sub-UFC caliber. Just a semantic argument thought, I see where you’re coming from.

Honestly, only the UFC can really know if its current strategy is working or not. I get the impression that they don’t want any other brand associated with MMA and that’s why they don’t run a B-league or anything like WEC anymore.

I know lots of people complain about saturation, but what are they supposed to do? I’m guessing they don’t want to run a B-league or anything like that and they don’t want to let competitors have access to fighters that could turn into stars. Where should they put all those fighters? Should they not be televised in any capacity whatsoever? Should the prelims to PPVs have 20+ fights every time? I think the complaints are a little silly to be honest. If there are too many cards that seem underwhelming to you, don’t watch them. Watch the ones that look good. I thought just the PPVs this year so far have been pretty good. Weidman/Machida, Hendricks/Lawler and Dillashaw/Barao standout as really great fights this year alone.

I think some people also have rose-colored glasses and fondly remember great old cards and conflate it with a smaller number of events.

1686

I really hate the fact that the UFC is shoveling its subscription Fight Pass, in addition to the pay per view cards every 3 weeks or so.

I’m definitely getting saturated with the number of cards, and I finally broke my streak of seeing every card produced when they started showing 2/day with one on Fight Pass. Fight Pass has actually gotten me to stop buying the Pay Per View cards altogether, and previously I bought every card for $60. Now I just go to a bar and watch them there, which is much cheaper

1687

haha well yeah, if they’re in the UFC they’re obviously UFC caliber fighters. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

I imagine it is working, to some extent, else the UFC wouldn’t actually do it. Pretty much everything I said in my previous post was from a fan’s perspective and not a businessman’s perspective. I’m willing to bet that they’re grossing higher with an over saturation of fights than they are if they keep the number of shows smaller but with more stacked cards. Casual fans still turn in whenever they get a chance, and the more shows on the greater the chance that casuals will watch, and even the hardcore fans still probably tune into the same number of shows (if not more) to see the fights that “matter”. The UFC doesn’t really care about MMA so much as they care about UFC, so an actual B-league doesn’t make a lot of sense for them, and there are plenty of local promotions to farm from without having to go through the trouble of making and promoting another of their leagues. Again, I was just speaking from a fan’s perspective and not that of somebody trying to run the business.

Part of the problem with recent UFC events is that it is pretty obvious fighters on the cards aren’t going to turn into the next big thing. At best a couple of them might become gatekeepers, but half the card (or more) seemed to be filled with fighters who wouldn’t even be the contenders of a regional promotion, nevermind orgs like Bellator, One, WSOF, or UFC.

I’m not sure what you mean by “Should the prelims to PPVs have 20+ fights every time?” I previously made points about UFC having a smaller roster of more elite talent, so I definitely don’t want cards with 20+ fights on them, unless the UFC was only planning on six shows a year. And, like I said earlier, I’ve stopped watching a lot of the cards because they ARE underwhelming. So it looks like I preemptively ninja’d your advice! Woo!

The PPV’s this year HAVE actually been PRETTY good, as you say. But none of the cards have stood out as great to me, even though there have been some great individual fights. And the free televised stuff has rarely ended up with more than one or two fights worth watching. I just randomly picked #83 (I guess you’ll have to take my word that it was a random pick) to just try to gauge whether I got my rose tinted glasses on when I fondly remember the time when cards were fewer and seemed more stacked. The worst fight in UFC 83 had Rich Franklin in it. And over a month later (not the next day or a week later, but OVER a month later) we have UFC 84 where the only fight on the main card that didn’t end in a finish was Tito Ortiz vs Lyoto Machida, and fighters like DHK, Shane Carwin (first fight of the night), and Paul Harris were on the undercard among other easily recognizable fighters. Out of the last five events covering the last month, there have only been two PPVs. Can we agree the free stuff on TV has almost never been as stacked as the numbered PPV’s? Even in the “good ol’ days”? UFC 174 and 175 were the PPVs. At UFC 174 we had a fight with the always exciting Demetrius Johnson defending his belt, but other than than that there were not really exciting fights other than a weird injury in the first main card fight, and the only semi-recognizable name on the undercard was Yves Jabouin. At UFC 175 last weekend we had the first fight of the night between Kevin Casey and Bubba Bush. Who they crap are they? If I were a betting man I’d bet money we’ll never see Bubba Bush in the UFC ever again, and Kevin Casey will never make it off the undercard on a PPV before he gets cut. I highly doubt Bubba or Casey will ever be fighting for a belt like Carwin, or considering a contender in the UFC like DHK, or win a belt in WSOF like Palhares. And that was just comparing two random PPVs from an earlier era to the two best cards in the last five events.

I don’t see how the better cards CAN’T be conflated with fewer events. More events means there are fewer good fights per card, simply because fighters need to rest up between fights, and there are injuries and stuff, yadda yadda yadda, and the best fighters can’t be in every card, but card space needs to get filled. Maybe my glasses are rose tinted, but it doesn’t mean the perception is off.

All that being said, as a fan of the sport, I’m happy for the guys who normally wouldn’t have made it out of regional promotions who are now getting a shot at UFC glory (and paychecks/endorsements) with the increased number of shows. It doesn’t mean I want to necessarily watch their fights, but I’m glad these guys are getting a piece of that kit-kat bar broken off, if you know what I mean.

1688

You say they don’t care about MMA, but couldn’t this be seen as caring about MMA? The more things are stacked with “big names”, the more likely UFC is to devolve into WWE, whereas the more you’ve got “hungry” guys who want to make a mark, the less likely? Dunno, just musing.

With every fighting sport, as soon as someone becomes a precious commodity to draw in crowds, the more likely you’re going to get a “safety first” attitude. And is the average MMA fan really likely going to be able to distinguish between a work and a shoot? The difference can be quite subtle as far as appearance goes.

1689

carltonbauheimer it’s kind of weird to single out Kevin Casey/Bubba Bush since that was a pre-prelim fight. They are pretty much by definition going to be nobodies. It’s all well and good to joke that they won’t ever be contenders, since most likely they won’t, but we don’t know that and the UFC doesn’t know that.

Also you picked an insane benchmark with UFC 83, a year where multiple legendary champions or former champions were fighting (GSP, Serra, Lesnar, Penn, Silva, it’s like a greatest hits). Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz, and Randy Couture were still fighting, some of the most popular fighters to ever come out of TUF (Leben, Bisping, Bonnar, Griffin, Sanchez, Evans, etc.) were practically at their peaks. Heck, look at the buy rates for all the PPVs that year, they’re insane. This is what I mean when I say rose colored glasses. You picked an era where the UFC roster was probably at its most stacked – something that we only really know due to hindsight – and compared it to the present day. Of course the cards were stacked back then, but even with that they still had a bunch of Fight Nights with pretty low key cards.

I get where you’re coming from as a fan and I’m mostly playing devil’s advocate, but the current state of affairs really isn’t changing anytime soon and they’re definitely not going back to 5-6 events a year.The UFC wants to be a monopoly and it follows from that they have to sign every fighter under the sun or risk potential stars going to other promotions, which makes for a lot of fights.

And hey, if you need a reprieve UFC 176 was cancelled so now the next PPV isn’t until the end of August!

ALSO, would anyone object to this thread being moved to Everything Else if that’s possible? All our other sports threads are there.

1690

I singled out Casey/Bubba because it was the first fight on the card, kind of like how Shane Carwin was the first fight on a card, and he ended up fighting for the heavyweight belt.

I’d hate for the UFC to go back to 5-6 events a year, but five in a month seems to be a little too much to me. And I don’t think the fix for stopping stars from going to other promotions is to hire enough fighters to do 50+ shows a year. And if the UFC were really concerned about other organizations having big name fighters, they’d have already hired fighters like Ben Askren, Aoki, Eddie Alvarez, or Pat Curran, just to name a few.

haha UFC 176 was one I was actually looking forward to :(

(I’d be fine with a move to the EE forum. I don’t care much one way or the other :p)

1691

I hear what you’re saying, but you can have hungry, quality fighters without having to scrape the bottom of the proverbial barrel. The UFC has pretty consistently done a good job (until recently, IMO) of getting good fighters with pleasing styles who want to make a mark. I’m sure plenty of the fighters they’ve hired to fill out the cards are hungry and want to make their mark, but I just don’t think they’re ready for the quality UFC fans have been accustomed to. I mean have you guys been watching the prelims lately? Aside from the “headline” prelim fights (like recent Faber vs Caceres) the prelims have been lackluster.

As a general aside I’d just like to thank everybody involved in this discussion. In every MMA forum I’ve been to this discussion would already have devolved into questioning the sexual habits of our mothers. This is nice, even if we don’t agree.

1692

Well I don’t think it’s so much that the UFC doesn’t want stars going to other promotions (which they don’t, given all the money they threw at Gilbert Melendez), it’s that they don’t want other promotions to exist AT ALL and for that they definitely need to sign everybody. They’d rather pay cans to not fight or fight crappy Fight Night prelims than let competitors have any fighters at all.

Anyway, moving on to more productive discussions I’m actually really looking forward to Cerrone vs. Miller this wednesday. I have a total soft spot for Cerrone even though he’s a total hick. His last 3 fights were really good too.

Not sure if anyone else here is interested in grappling, but Metamoris 4 is looking really cool. They have a roided up Chael Sonnen vs. Andre Galvao (one of the best grapplers in the world), Josh Barnett vs. Dean Lister, plus two cool guys in Saulo Ribeiro (whose book book Jiu Jitsu University is one of the best on BJJ), Vinny Magalhaes, and rumor has it that Kenny Florian will be competing as well. $30 to stream the event, so not a bad deal. I’m looking forward to it.

1693

Is Lister big enough to compete with Barnett? That seems like kinda of a crazy match up, because Barnett is no slouch AND he is much larger than Lister.

Edit: Actually, now that I’m thinking more about it, Lister vs Barnett might actually be a pretty exciting scrap. Interesting to see if big-man catch wrestling can beat a smaller former submission grappling champ.

And yeah, the Cerrone-Miller fight should be great. Both of them are historically entertaining.

1694

Tonight’s card owned hard. All sorts of finishes, mainly due to body shots.

1695

Is there any way there will ever do fights not at 10PM at night and not charge $60 a pop to see them? Because this sport will never rival any of the more mainstream ones if they keep up this model. I haven’t been able to see a fight in over a year. If they had them during the day on weekends or during the evenings on weekdays I’d be all over it, but $60 a fight is way too steep for me. Why do they stick with this model?

Last fight I saw was when Anderson Silva broke his leg, and it was months before that. I’m a big fan but unfortunately I think I’m dropping watching these as a past-time because they are so unavailable.

1696

They’ve been doing more than PPVs for a long time now. Mind you, they still keep their best matchups on PPV, but at the very least the main events on TV cards are interesting on paper. I don’t know which networks Fight Night events come on in the US now, I think most of them are Fox Sports 1? Last night’s Fight Night was on Fox Sports 1 and was filled with really good fights.

On top of that there are Fight Pass exclusive events, which TBH aren’t very good and are usually on at really awful times, but it’s something. If you’re out of the US I think Fight Pass airs all the Fight Night events. At least, it does for me.

The start times for Fight Night events varies more as well. Pretty much everything you’re asking for already exists.

1697

I got to a sports bar with a few friends to watch UFC events. Even with the cost of food/drinks its a lot cheaper than dropping money on a PPV, unless of course you can get a big enough group together who all pitch in to watch it.

1698

Conor McGregor and Diego Brandao were both pretty amped up at their weigh-ins today. Might be a pretty good fight if you have Fight Pass.

1699

I liked Conor McGregor at first because he just seemed so enthusiastic and jazzed to be fighting in the UFC and representing Ireland, but his nonstop talking and arrogance (“I’m the best there ever was and ever will be!”) has gotten to the point where I would love to see him beaten and embarrassed. Cole Miller (his original opponent) would have been an interesting match up because McGregor’s ground game hasn’t truly been tested and Cole has some slick subs, but Brandao will probably just stand with him (although Brandao is apparently no slouch on the ground either). McGregor can probably outstrike Brandao - it really depends on how Brandao’s weight cut went. If McGregor does get someone like Swanson or Poirier or Frankie Edgar (oooh) next, I foresee him getting a reality check along with the shit beaten out of him.

Honestly I would love to see both of them lose in some sort of bizarre fashion. McCall vs Pickett should fun as well, I quite like both of those guys so hopefully they can both win in an equally bizarre and impossible fashion. Gunnar Nelson could be a real contender in his division too, so that’s an important stepping-stone fight. It’s not a half bad main card for Fight Pass.

1700

Swanson and Edgar are pretty much title shot or bust at this point and they both deserve it. Poirier might make a little more sense as prove it matches to both guys.

Also there is this: