UFC, Pride and K-1

I don’t know if anyone else here enjoys the UFC, so I’ll just start up a topic.

Obviously I have to say that UFC has become less and less of what I enjoy. Which is two guys going at it to tear each other up. I’m a big fan of boxing, martial arts tournaments and to an extent the UFC as it stands now. It has really dropped in entertainment value.

The only time I really see much UFC is when I go to live events like I did this last saturday.

I’ll just give the contenders and some brief comments about each bout. Admittedly I was getting tipsy near the end (the event lasts about 5 hours live) so my blood was running pretty hot.

Also I would say that attending live events is the only way to go with UFC. Alot of the crowd are friends of trainers and fighters as well as sponser connections. Tapout and Xyience are pretty heavy, but if you get good seats (first few rows) you get to sit with people in the business of the UFC which is really enjoyable to watch with and for. Also Tapout whores are damn hot and slutty which makes for entertainment between fights.

MAIN EVENT: Nate Marquardt (24-6-1) vs Ivan Salaverry (11-3-1) – Middleweights
Marquardt defeated Salaverry by unanimous decision (30-27; 30-27; 29-28).

This was the last fight of the day. It was pretty shitty as far as UFC fights go. Nate is a 7 Time winner of the Pancrase and it shows. He was all blocks and timing while Ivan (his senior by more than 10 years) was unwilling to commit or throw much. Nate got a takedown on the first round, then they were stood up after Nate had a problem dealing with Ivan’s ground defence and stomach pressure, pushing out his breath. From what I heard Ivan had been training on it, since Nate in his fights is a heavy submission specialist. Second Round Nate got 2 takedowns and the booing began. Nate was obviously the superior fighter and more than once I was yelling out “Pussy” and next to me an Ivan supporter was yelling about doing it for maple syrup and O’ Canada. The third down was yet another let down of shadowboxing and waiting. Nate obviously didn’t want to commit when he already had a point win on his hands and that’s what he’s used to. Ivan couldn’t do dick against Nate’s defense and couldn’t get close enough to do any damage. By the last minute of the 3rd round people were beginning to file out.

A real shitty match, Nate is going to have to do alot better on his showmanship and willingness to get dirty if he wants to get any sort of matches in the UFC.

Bout 1: Josh Neer (13-1-1) vs Drew Ficket (26-3-0) – Welterweights
Ficket defeated Neer by KO at 1:35 of the first round by submission with a standing rear-naked choke hold.

Josh had alot of supporters are the match and Drew is a real dickhead. He’s a sponser whore and egomanic. But for what it’s worth he’s a hell of a Welterweight. His arms and legs were huge and Drew is another submission specialist. Josh came in tired, his first UFC fight and he wasn’t ready. A few minutes of testing each other out when Drew took Josh down put him on his back, made him squirm around for 10-20 seconds then Josh made a mistake, let Drew up on his back, stupidly got his chin up and Drew choked his ass out.

Classic mistake in the UFC. But an “OK” fight.

Bout 2: Alex Karalexis (5-0) vs Kenny Florian (4-2) – Welterweights
Florian defeated Karalexis by TKO at 2:52 of the second round after the referee stopped the fight due to an injury sustained to the nose.

This was a good fight. Alex had more of his weight in the right spots and was at a point beating Kenny so bad he actually let him up from his back on the ground to a stand in I think the first round. Kenny used his knees alot and broke one of Alex’s ribs with a good crack of side kick and worked it a bit with some knees. Alex got a little more serious in the second round and landed a good number of punches, lighting up Kenny’s head a few times. Unfortunately for Alex he wasn’t aware that Kenny had been training using his elbows for clutch play. He got in too close and as he started a combo Kenny came around with an elbow and put a pretty vicious cut across Alex’s nose. He knew he had already won before the fight was stopped. It was pretty anti-climactic and one of the things I really don’t like about UFC… exploiting shit rules like blood cuts. It wouldn’t have happened in the UFC a few years ago.

Bout 3: Gideon Ray (15-2-1) vs Mike Swick (4-2) – Middleweights
Swick defeated Ray by KO at 22 seconds of the first round by a left-right-left counter-punch to the head.

This fight was great and at the same time a letdown. A few punches were thrown to get distance then as Gideon started a combo “Quick” Swick came in with killer fast hands. It only took 4 punches to end the match, the fight winner was the second punch right to the grill that knocked Gideon senseless starting his drop, the third one pushed him to the ground. After a grazing blow to a cheek the ref called it when Mike punched Gideon in the throat a second or two after he hit the mat. Mike has the record for quickest KO with 20 seconds and he has really fast hands. I like him quite a bit.

Bout 4: Pete Spratt (14-7-0) vs Josh Koscheck (5-0) – Welterweights
Koscheck defeated Spratt by KO at 1:53 of the first round by a full rear-naked choke hold.

I used to not like Josh Koscheck at all, he has been a major asshole every other time he’s fought. But there is no denying the kid is fucking built to fight. He’s fast, strong, smart and has great movement, good striking and submission skills. Pete never had a chance and was on his back after getting knocked down and while manuvering got on his back Josh pulled out the choke and it was game over. I don’t think Josh broke much of a sweat. Counter to all his previous fights, he was gracious and genuine in his remarks about fighting Pete and the UFC in general and the kid is a talent. If he can get his head screwed on straight he’ll be a great fighter to watch.

Bout 5: Pete Sell (6-0-0) vs Nate Quarry (13-1) – Middleweights
Quarry defeated Sell by TKO at 14 seconds of the first round after the referee stopped the fight due to knock-down from a powerful left-right combination.

This was total and complete horseshit. I was right next to some Pete fans and the match was what I really hate about UFC now. An overeager ref who doesn’t know what the game is about. It was the worst fight of the evening because Nate hit him hard once in a combo, knocked Pete down on his back and the ref called the fight. Pete’s hands were up, ready for Nate to jump on him and even though he was dazed, but the UFC is about getting dirty and on the ground and it was a nannyfest. The entire seating were booing for almost 10 minutes straight as a live fight has to cut for commercials. Nate is a good fighter, but so is Pete and they didn’t even get to fight. The impressions I got from the Tapout and UFC guys I was round was that the ref had got his last match of his UFC career.

Bout 6: Sam Hoger (5-0) vs Stephan Bonnar (9-2) – Light Heavyweights
Bonnar defeated Hoger by unanimous decision (30-27) following three intense rounds of stand-up and ground fighting.

This was the best damn fight of the night. I’m a Stephan Bonnar fan and this fight was no exception to the great guy he is and his style. Every match seems to be a hamburger fight with him and that’s what I love to watch. He came in a little less ready than I have seen him before and it was a tough match. Most of the match was spent on the ground and against the fence, with alot of reverses on both Sam and Stephan making some mistakes. It was hard fighting from the beginning and you could see in the second and third round it was pure guts, heart, stamina, and determination that kept both fighters in the game. Sam is a good fighter to stand toe to toe with Stephan for 3 rounds of brutal fighting. This is what makes UFC enjoyable.

Bout 7: Patrick Cote (6-2-0) vs Chris Leben (11-1) – Middleweights
Leben defeated Cote by split decision (29-28, Leben; 29-27, Kote; 30-27, Leben).

Leben and Cote are teammates, so this fight I think was staged to an extent. They have trained together pretty well and that was obvious by the way they fought that they knew each other’s weaknesses and seemed to avoid them. I was and still am a Leben fan, he’s a great guy and fun to watch. This fight started kind of slow. Leben used alot of foot stomps on Cote’s feet to wear down his mobility but it didn’t seem to do dick really as he has alot of holes in his offense and defense. They spent a good amount of time tied up with Chris only getting Cote down on the mat twice on his back. Even then he couldn’t really bring his elbows to bear on his face, even though Chris is more at home with sprawling and brawling. There were a few good exchanges of punches and all in all was a pretty good fight.

Final Thoughts - They need more heavyweights and less submission fighting. While I enjoy wrestling, it’s not very entertaining to watch grappling on the ground without a few courtesy punches, elbows or knees thrown in there to punish the opponent.

For awhile every Saturday I went over to my brother’s, kicked his ass in NFL 2K5, and for entertainment would watch something on DirectTV - usually a late game or on one of the sports channels (SUN I think in Florida or one of the Fox ones) UFC.

So having seen about a dozen bouts of previously-PvP matches, I haven’t really seen anything great about UFC. 80% the bouts were submission fights for the most part, and only a few were, uh, stand-up I guess. I don’t remember the term.

And for the most part submission fights are 2.5 rounds of boredom, mixed with 0.4 rounds of standing and exchanging leg-kicks or jabs, and 0.1 rounds of fast-paced action, usually during the submission part. It’s extremely tactical, which is interesting, but God lots of it bore me to tears. It’s worse than wrestling from any era, amateur or pro.

In the commercials they make it seem like all fist-pounding action, great hits, pounding submissions… but none of it ever happens. Usually some weak ending or some other dumb thing (though arm-bars are legit I know, not what I’m referring to).

I think I’ve seen maybe 5 good bouts, probably two of which were decent submission fights. One went both ways - that was cool.

As for hte blood - I dunno, I’ve seen some pretty bloody bouts. What was the specific rule?

I’ll still watch it - there’s no way in hell I’d specifically pay money to see it (and definitely not for $50 or so on PPV unless someone else is footing the bill) - but mostly to make fun of.

Hell I think K-1 is probably more exciting.

— Alan

Striking? Boxing? Brawling?

And for the most part submission fights are 2.5 rounds of boredom, mixed with 0.4 rounds of standing and exchanging leg-kicks or jabs, and 0.1 rounds of fast-paced action, usually during the submission part. It’s extremely tactical, which is interesting, but God lots of it bore me to tears. It’s worse than wrestling from any era, amateur or pro.

Yes indeed. Those are not fun fights to watch, however, they are allowed because some fighters are very good with those things and deserve to win.

I think the real point of this is that it comes down to shifting weight as well as grip. Reversals can be quick but it really takes two fighters suited to their style to make it happen. The best fight of the night (Hogar v Bonnar) with was mostly a submission match. It had a bit of striking and punching, but the real action was the intense grappling on the ground and slip and shifting for advantage positions that close and dangerous with each other. The intensity was raw as well as the palpable exhaustion and strain of pitting every fiber of your body against another who is as strong and dangerous as you was very visible. Losing and regaining key and piviotal grips for a choke out or a submission manuver while reversing your position from bottom to top or escapes might be more of a grapple/judo/wrestling affection.

Obviously if you didn’t know what they were doing or how it can lessen the enjoyment of it. Also submission specialists tend to have shorter matches due to the difficulty of defending against these guys getting close, wearing you down and slipping into their grip. No action outside of the kind of hiss as you know someone is going to sleep.

In the commercials they make it seem like all fist-pounding action, great hits, pounding submissions… but none of it ever happens. Usually some weak ending or some other dumb thing (though arm-bars are legit I know, not what I’m referring to).

Yeah, I guess most people think it’s going to be some sort of kickass stuntman show with guys being able to take brutal punishment. There are a few guys who fight in the UFC who have very good stamina under wear and tear, but it’s not enough to make every match a good fight. Especially the stakes of a mere loss of balance to turn a fight and the strength that most of these guys have.

As for hte blood - I dunno, I’ve seen some pretty bloody bouts. What was the specific rule?

I don’t know the exact rule. I do know however that the doctors they have now in the UFC are pretty tame as far as injuries go. The rules specifically stop most of the ability to cripple or kill another man, but specifically they are trying to reuse their talent. I imagine if the UFC let every guy go out with crippling injuries they wouldn’t have much repeat business. In the elbow cutting fight the cut was probably as deep as the guys nose at the bridge and was probably a 1/4 inch thick. It was pouring blood like when the stage doc put in a cartilage spacer to hold his nose apart.

I’ll still watch it - there’s no way in hell I’d specifically pay money to see it (and definitely not for $50 or so on PPV unless someone else is footing the bill) - but mostly to make fun of.

There is alot to make fun of, especially the stupid parts. But the fighting, if genuine is entertaining for me. This might just be the primitive or violent nature of man or me. In my defense however I do practice some judo/akido, have wrestled and boxed before, and at a time in my life was very prone to fighting for the sake of fighting in the underbelly. Like a hard spar, getting a body bag workout, or watching a hard, long boxing match breeds exhiliration that I find in thinks like mountaineering or skydiving are the only examples I can really explain.

Hell I think K-1 is probably more exciting.

I’m glad you mentioned the K-1. It is extremely exciting and fun to watch. I think there the K-1 is having a tourney at the Mirage on the 13th. However, I would say that in the beginning UFC and K-1 had alot in common and then the UFC went more mainstream or ‘wrestling’ with it’s approach. Though you never know, they may just be going mainstream with the UFC until they can integrate these other martial arts, boxing, wrestling, and fighting tournaments together to one place to play. But probably not.

500 Internal Server Error.

Awesome.

I watched it. It was okay I guess, but most of the fights were pretty boring. The UFC seems to have devolved a bit back into brawl central. It’s all about the stand-up(with very little kicking) and the GnP. It’s just not very exciting and the skill level is not that high with a few exceptions.

That’s why I watch PRIDE. Immensely better fighters and much more entertaining fights.


Vaporizer forum

Zen, have you heard of UFC Unleashed? Looks like some sort of show, possibly new, not entirely sure.

— Alan

UFC Unleashed comes on Monday nights after WWE. :roll:

It highlights old UFC fights. Last night was CHuck vs Tito, Randy vs Rizzo, and Chuck vs Vernon White.


TRICHOME

Ah okay so basically not really worth watching.

— Alan

I’d have to agree with you for the most part. PRIDE is good, though I would have to say that from what I’ve seen it is sliding down the UFC path a little with it’s fighters.

However, I did see a BUSHIDO a few months ago, and the rules there are pretty good for action. It may just be the round length that I do like more. Also the one thing I like about PRIDE is the fact that it’s fighters are docked pay for not fighting their hardest.

Oh yeah, the Bushido shows are great. I’m looking forward to the Bushido Grand Prix later this year. Should be a great tournament.

And man, August 28th?

Wanderlei vs Arona and Shogun vs Overeem! Then we get to see the winner of those fights fight for the title. Plus Fedor vs Crocop finally! Not to mention all the other great fights on the card. Potentially, it is the best MMA card ever put together.


Plymouth superbird

Yes, indeed. I really can’t wait.

And man, August 28th?

Wanderlei vs Arona and Shogun vs Overeem! Then we get to see the winner of those fights fight for the title. Plus Fedor vs Crocop finally! Not to mention all the other great fights on the card.

Yeah, I am a little torn on who I’m going for the title, but all of them are fierce competitiors. I’m hoping that none are sick or injured. Fedor v Crocop! Crocop all the way baby! With the Alexander fight behind him almost a year ago one or the other is going to get mangled!

Honestly though Fedor is one of the best fighters I’ve ever seen. I don’t know how Crocop is going to deal with the ground game he has been showing throughout his entire career.

Have you read anything about their specific training in this one?

Ive found both events have a mix of boring and decent fights. Lay and Pray isnt exclusive to either.

Having said that, I prefer the Pride fighters, rules, event and crowds.

Apparently Fedor has been in Holland training with a bunch of Muay Thai guys. It’s generally accepted that some of the best pure Thai fighters in the world come out of Holland so I would assume Fedor is there working on his kick defense for some odd reason… :roll:

Some pics of Fedor in Holland here: http://forum.nokaut.com/viewtopic.php?t=5787

Crocop I’m sure has been working with the BJJ black belt who came over to his team. I don’t remember his name.

The real problem for Crocop I think is takedowns. Sure Crocop has a fantastic sprawl, but Fedor never shoots for a single or double leg. All of Fedor’s throws and takedowns are Sambo-style upper body control throws. And Fedor, with his massive strength will probably be able to take Fedor down.

I think the over riding factor in this fight is really where will most of the action take place? If it’s stand up, I lean 60/40 in Crocop’s favor. If it’s on the ground, I’m more in the ballpark of 80/20 for Fedor. If Nog couldn’t submit Fedor, no way in hell can Crocop. And Fedor’s GnP is legendary, so…


Iolite

I watched Bushido 7 over the weekend, my first Pride fight.

Wow.

Screw UFC and K-1, Pride is so much better. It’s like pure, unadulterated UFC with more martial arts than K-1 (and where there’s a lot of styles), better fights, interesting matchups, submission fights that aren’t boring (intentionally), and just the right amount of nuttiness (can you say Crazy Horse? yikes). 2 rounds in all, a 10-minute and 5-minute round… only saw it go to scoring like once, and only one submission (a wonderful twisting arm-bar).

Fighters have to be careful - gloves are very light, feet are bare… solid hits knock the crap out of you. Lots of blood. One guy got a kick to the head and he was out like a light.

— Alan

Anyone here train or compete?

I’m in my sixth year of BJJ and third year of muay thai — won my only MMA fight (via armbar), also a Gracie Open silver medalist as a blue belt.

I Cross train ground and stand up (BJJ/MT etc) although Ive been slacking this year since starting a new role at work. Investment banking doesnt go well with social activities in the evening.

I might try and head to something closer to the office after work, Roger Gracie has a school in the west end, and there’s a couple of other good ones too.

I trained submission wrestling and BJJ on and off for a couple of years, always managing to switch cities or injure myself when I started to feel like I was switched on and in shape enough to think about competition. I hope that eventually I live somewhere with a good, close MMA school again. In the meantime, I do yoga and lift weights and try to keep myself in some kind of decent shape for when I can train again. And the female friend I dragged to a BJJ class with me four years ago just got her purple belt from Gustavo Machado. Sigh.

I can understand that you would want to train MMA-related disciplines but I don’t see why you would actually want to compete unless you are a natural fighter or something. It seems like competitions means fighting in your local “Rage in the Cage”, and you don’t really get paid for it either. I noticed that second tier organizations like King of the Cage paid around $2500/$500 for main event/undercard matches. The UFC is not much better, you probably won’t get more than $2500+$2500 win bonus if you fight on the undercard. At least people aren’t fighting for money.

I can understand that you would want to train MMA-related disciplines but I don’t see why you would actually want to compete…I noticed that second tier organizations like King of the Cage paid around $2500/$500 for main event/undercard matches. The UFC is not much better, you probably won’t get more than $2500+$2500 win bonus if you fight on the undercard. At least people aren’t fighting for money.

The competition is its own reward – none of the six guys I know who fought in the UFC made more than $3,000 total for his first fight there. (For which they trained full-time for several months.)

With that said, the rules packet has been approved here in California, paving the way for MMA shows at venues like the Staples Center or HP Pavilion. That could turn fighting into a lucrative proposition pretty quickly.

What Daniel said. There are maybe ten MMA fighters in the world who make more from fighting than I do as a game programmer no one’s ever heard of. No one gets into fighting, or submission grappling, or BJJ competition because of the money. You do it because if you don’t, you’ll always wonder how your skills would measure up.