Christ, I know. Why do people get so emotionally worked up over healthcare rights in this country? It’s not like it’s an issue that’s LITERALLY FUCKING KILLING THEM or anything. Man, people just need to calm down and discuss this in an emotionless vacuum, devoid of human faces or visible consequences!

Unfortunately, this is also a point that advocates for the other side also gloss over. WE NEED DEATH PANELS. It’s not an optional thing if you’re going to remove health care from the private sector. I favor that (before even touching any moral issues, it has become clear that the American public is unwilling to live with the necessary consequences of an efficient, functional private health care system, so the only sustainable alternative is to make it fully public, because if the present system teaches us nothing else, it is that keeping the system quasi-private is a formula for failure).

The single best benefit that allowing a free market to decide where health care gets directed is that it is clear, unambiguous, and objective. You can live until you run out of money or people who are willing to pay for you to be alive. If nobody is willing or able to pony up the cash for that eighth lung…sorry, guy, but your time is up. People who want fully public health care should be lauded for their desire to save lives, but they need to realize that they’re STILL going to have to make a call on when it’s time to stop providing care, and it’s going to shake down exactly like this program in Arizona. Sometimes even treatment that could be successful in mitigating a condition is not worth the cost. For instance, let’s take an eighty year old person in a wheelchair with a developing case of dementia who suddenly comes down with an illness that can be cured through an incredibly expensive procedure. Even in the case of a public system, that person is never going to pay back the money you spend to cure his condition. He will never return value to your economy. The only legitimate argument you can make for providing the service at that point is the existence of a moral obligation to keep living people alive, and that’s not the kind of thinking you can afford to pursue in any health care system (public or private) if you want it to stay functional. One small benefit of the private system is that it has a built-in objective and indisputable switch for making this decision - you get to live until you run out of money to fix things that are broken in you, or you get something you can’t fix, or you decide to stop fixing things. I don’t think it’s enough of a benefit to outweigh the system’s inherent problems or overwhelm the complete unwillingness of most moral people to allow the system to work in the way it needs to, but it IS a benefit that we need to be careful not to lose completely.

That’s why emotionalizing the discussion is precisely the WRONG thing to do. You have to elevate the economic and functional concerns of the system above the emotional reflex response of “but that baby could live forever in a bubble, separated from the environment and largely unable to interact with the world.” In this case, budget shortfalls in Arizona are making a health program untenable. The best response - and the most helpful one - is to describe in objective terms why the program is good and useful and how you would propose for it to be rescued.

I have a dog in this hunt too. I’m a Type I diabetic. My dad lived to 50. I figure that I’ll usefully make it to around 60 or so if I do things right, but my organs are going to get screwed up faster than a comparatively healthy person’s, and I’m going to reach a point at which I am no longer able to contribute usefully to the domestic economy or industry. For now, I would contend that the things I can do provide enough value to offset the cost of keeping me from dying (what with the insulin and the doctor visits and the surgeries for ingrown toenails and the other expensive medications and cetera and cetera), but there’s going to come a point at which that is no longer true, and it’s going to be earlier than I want it to be unless something severely major happens in the medical community between today and when I get there. I won’t want to die at that point, but I honestly find a part of myself genuinely hoping that whoever is footing the bill for my health care at the point that I become nothing but a drain on the world will be able to put aside the emotional concerns about letting me go for the good of everybody else. That’s not a decision that anybody can ever make while there are voices in the discussion shouting about how horrible individual stories of loss and tragedy are. More than anything, what the discussion of health care in the United States needs is complete dispassion if we ever hope to reach a workable, sustainable platform.

It happens that I’m tentatively in favor of the Arizona program currently under scrutiny, but I need to review the costs and benefits more closely to determine whether I’m being ruled by my purely emotional desire not to see anybody die or I’m actually reaching a reasonable conclusion. The way in which this matter was brought up, however - with a shrill, Helen Lovejoy, “won’t somebody think of the children” tenor - is monumentally unhelpful to achieving that goal, and we’ve all got to start being more careful with how we broach and discuss these issues.

You know what isn’t going to accomplish anything? Framing the discussion in terms of who to kill first. If that’s the debate you give the public they’ll stick with the status quo forever rather than think about it. It’s not even a substantial source of the current costs, so I don’t know why you guys focus on it so much.

When the elites want a war, they don’t talk about cost-benefit analysis or net-present value of corpses; it’s framed in terms of values and standards. Maybe I’m crazy, but “we should waste less money on treatments that don’t work” and “we should stop people dying of treatable problems” will actually get you somewhere.

You know what isn’t going to accomplish anything? Framing the discussion in terms of who to kill first. If that’s the debate you give the public they’ll stick with the status quo forever rather than think about it

This is why you point out that the status quo already has death panels. It already makes the decisions about who to kill first.

So here’s something for perspective. My reading of the articles is that we’re talking about a savings of about $4.5 million by telling poor people they can’t have these transplants.

How many times have we had discussions/arguments about something like earmarks for stupid pet projects and someone says “oh, it’s only $3 billion dollars, it’s not enough to fuss about.” Tell me there isn’t four and a half million somewhere in the system that is going to a statue of Lucious Pyle or a study of poodle hair for camouflage for a potential war in France. I’m all for the argument of priorities: just convince me we don’t have four point five freakin million dollars somewhere that isn’t being spent on something less worthwhile and impactful on human suffering.

love

Some data on arizona’s budget. Looks like they’ve had to make some serious cuts due to losing a third of their revenue.
http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Arizona_state_budget

Looks like they’ve already made a lot of big cuts, so it could be that they are just down to this level of having to try and get a few million here and there.

There’s no clear, accountable organization currently making those decisions. Each insurance agency has its own people deciding what they will and won’t pay for. There’s an enormous number of local, state, and federal health-related organizations making those decisions. The closest thing I can think of it whatever determines Medicare and Medicaid payouts, but those are only 35% of health care spending.

There are death panels of a sort, such as Aetna and Blue Cross teams who immediately are tasked with finding ways to kick women out of coverage if they have certain tests related to breast cancer that show up on their radar screen. They are more insidious in that they work so deeply behind the scenes.

The result of decisions made by UNOS (United Network for Organ Sharing) can be a life or death decision. If you need a liver transplant, for example, UNOS is going to decide how much priority you receive. There are a lot of factors that go into that decision, some of them are hard medical facts and some of them less so (such as estimating how likely you are to comply with anti-rejection medication).

Livers are a scarce resource, like most all medical care, and the UNOS organization is one approach on how to tackle scarce resource distribution – by a committee of “experts.” Our current approach for other types of scare, like say access to good primary care, rations care in a less explicit manner and less organized manner.

All systems are capable of being gamed by the wealthy or well-connected. A good recent example: Steven Jobs, who went to Tennessee for his liver transplant. Liver allocation is in part based on geography, that is a donated liver tends to stay in the state or nearby where it is harvested. In liver transplant circles it is well known which states have a more favorable liver supply:demand ratio. There’s no doubt in my mind Jobs had access to this information also.

Tennesee is one of those more favorable states, and they have excellent transplant centers there as well so you aren’t really sacrificing any medical expertise that exists in California. The catch is you just have to be available in Tennessee on a few hours notice should a liver become available. For a wealthy person, that’s not a problem.

The poster child of what you just said

Yes, that’s why he listed Steve as “a good recent example” in his post.

A country with a political party capable of publicly making this observation 2 years ago would have been…exceptional.

Ya, I don’t understand why it wasn’t the response given. The argument that “Death panels are just scare tactics! They’re not real!” isn’t a valid answer. It’s untrue, and thus crumbles under scrutiny. It’d be more effective to just point out why it’s not bad, or even different from what we have now.

No, it was true in the context of the debate. End of life counseling has nothing to do with denying care, but if you say, “Well, the bill doesn’t have death panels but there are death panels.” The average monkey on the street is going to hear “Both sides say that death panels are real.” It’s a soundbite world, more than one sentence of information just can’t get play.

H.

I may be mistaken here, but weren’t the notion of “Death Panels” presented as a mechanism by which the socialized healthcare system would deny care, and not actually as an end of life counseling thing?

Maybe that’s where the disconnect here is.

Presented by the right, yes, but had nothing to do with the actual bill. That’s why I think it would have been foolish for the Dems to say that there weren’t death panels in the bill, but hey there’s death panels in the insurance companies. Too subtle, sadly.

Sigh - the Dems are so ineffective.

The way to have framed this from the beginning was health insurance reform, and then have everything aligned in perspective of that approach. Keep it simple in what you present: No one will be forced to go without health care insurance because of a pre-existing condition; we recognize in today’s society that some parents have older kids, say up to 26, who are having a problem getting a job with health care insurance so you can carry them on yours (if you so choose) up to that age; no family will be allowed to go bankrupt over a medical crisis because of an insurance company policy; no insurance company will be allowed to kick you out and not pay your bills because you get cancer and they dig in and determine you didn’t report you had acne treatment 30 years ago. BTW, in order to prevent insurance companies from denying you coverage due to a pre-existing condition, everyone has to have coverage to avoid people from gaming the system and not paying for coverage until they have a major problem - but we’ll make sure the coverage is affordable for your situation. We’re going to make sure the for-profit insurance companies don’t screw you. The vast majority of the American people would support that. If you want to have discussions of “death panels” it falls under the scrutiny of existing insurance companies.

That was what the Democrats said. The only thing they did a light touch on attacking insurance companies, because the last time they tried that in 1993 they got their ass handed to them.

I thought that that was what Dems said, too. Yet, somehow, most of the people I live near in eastern PA seem to think that those things are bad.