Yes, Jason, we know.

Actually, it’ll slightly increasing taxes and reducing spending. Remember, without using the Social Security “surplus”, even Clinton didn’t have a balanced budget.

Yes, we know x2. Actually, the cost of those two entitlement programs are projected to exceed all federal tax revenues within 50 years. Obviously, that can’t happen, so something will have to change. As you know, this is why any serious deficit reduction program has to include major, major health care industry reform.

It must not. Total defense related spending is about $1.2T. The USA’s GDP is $16T, so defense spending is about 7.5% of our GDP.

7.5% still isn’t that big post-WW2 historically, and it’s not projected to outrun the economy every year.

Then why are you talking about “the deficit” when the two have nothing to do with each other?

Nope. Some expensive procedures (like heart surgery) give benefits in line with their costs, some don’t. US healthcare costs outrun the rest of the world’s because we do very little cost-benefit analysis and the market is arranged such that no one has an incentive to do it, either. Customers are incapable because they’re not trained medical professionals (which is why I find the skin in the game argument so hilarious), insurers only care about the next year’s expected payout and have high customer churn, doctors are paid on straight fee-for-service, and the government actively encourages fee-for-service.

Part of the problem is the inelasticity that Blackadar mentioned, although some of this may be a perception issue, especially in the case of a system where some entity is supposed to be providing for your healthcare (whether it be an insurance company or the government).

<prepare for statements that will enrage>

The reality is, it may be that the market really isn’t elastic. It may be that if you don’t have money, and you get certain illnesses, you die, where as a richer person gets treatment and lives. Tiny Tim doesn’t get his leg fixed, and dies next Christmas.

When healthcare is paid for directly by the consumer, rather than through some intermediary, then this is a viable option for the consumer to choose. They can choose to simply go quietly into the night, rather than burdening their family with immense healthcare costs.

The effect of this is then reduced demand, which will then produce reduced prices, which will then in turn make the services more accessible to more people, until the system reaches an equilibrium.

This is, truly, the only way to actually control costs. Now, there are various mechanisms by which such a decision can be made, but ultimately that’s what it comes down to… At some point, the cost of the treatment must be weighed against the benefit to whoever is paying, and it must be acceptable to simply decide that in certain situations people will die.

If put directly into the hands of consumers, then you will most directly realize these changes, although you will be setting up a system where the rich have a better chance of living (although, in reality, this is how it is in every system in the world anyway… but more on that in a bit). While this is disconcerting on some level, there is also the added benefit that the rich folks don’t make up much of the population, and as such, their impact on the overall price of care would likely be minimal. Charging 100,000 for a heart transplant wouldn’t work, because even though Richy Rich can afford it, he only needs one heart. The service, in order to support itself, would need to appeal to a large enough section of the market to create the necessary demand, which would mean it would need to bring the price down to something accessible by the masses. Of course, if you’re below the poverty line, then you would likely be hosed unless some additional saftey net were put in place.

The second option would be to have the government do this cost/benefit analysis. This would mean the government decides that some treatments are simply not covered, and if you need them, that’s too bad. This ends up being similar to the previous option, although the decision about who dies isn’t based on income. However, I believe you would need to introduce the added restriction of outlawing private purchasing of healthcare, because otherwise you have this additional variable introduced, where the price determined by the system will constantly get pushed up a little bit by the rich folks buying healthcare at higher costs, while having the government providing support that prevents the bottom falling out of the demand side… so the end result, I suspect, would be that costs would still increase faster than inflation, albeit slower than they are going now. (although this would also require fairly draconian views of what ends up be supported… the government would have to let lots of folks die of illnesses which could in fact be treated)

Finally, you have the private insurance system, which makes the same decisions about letting folks die. But at the same time suffers from the same kind of problems that the government system does. Namely, that cost/benefits analysis gets reduced to a set of rules which are inherently inefficient and inadequate for determining whether treatment should be pursued. I think this ends up being part of the big problem with both this and the government system… that an effective C/B can’t be performed using some universal rule set, as every situation is different. Once you take the analysis out of the hands of the consumer themselves, you lose the ability to analyze the situation’s nuances. This gets translated directly into inefficiency, which then bloats the cost of the service. This cost increase then gets compounded over time, and you have the clusterfuck we see today.

So… that’s some stuff. Don’t see how the system is going to be fixed though, since folks aren’t going to want to have folks dying from easilly treated illnesses just because it costs a lot.

This means that, eventually, the system is just going to collapse, and the system will likely revert to option 1 anyway. You’ll probably also lose most of the other social infrastructure support too though, so it’ll end up being way harder on the lower classes.

People have a very real sense of the value of employer-paid healthcare insurance, even if they don’t know the exact dollar amount. I’ve worked at companies where we’ve actually lost employees over benefits reductions. While people mention chronic and/or life-threatening illnesses as wake-up calls to the importance of good, inexpensive insurance, really the most common trigger is when you have kids. Suddenly, your household healthcare costs skyrocket. Is it to the point people will accept lower salaries in favor of better benefits? In some cases.

Keep in mind, the value of getting your insurance through your employer goes beyond financial benefits; in many cases, purchasing an individual policy wouldn’t be possible.

Timex: other nations do not have the healthcare cost death spiral at our system is facing. They also manage to provide better care to a larger percentage of their population. How do you fit these nations into the framework you outlined?

This doesn’t really happen. As a rule of thumb, people do not make rational financial decisions about their own health or the health of their loved ones.

Medical care should be considered infrastructure, like roads, police, fire protection, provided to all and paid for by all. Noted socialist Winston Churchill understood this, not sure why people nowadays struggle with it as a concept.

Regardless, $1T is an awfully big number.

It’s all interrelated.

No doubt the economy is the single largest driver of the current deficit, but it is not the only one. Even in a good economy, we still have to raise taxes and reduce spending moderately to get anywhere near a balanced budget, never mind the surplus needed to begin to pay down the national debt.

Future projected deficits require fixing Medicare/Medicaid, but also require the same sort of steps we would take today to balance the budget. Something has to be done to Medicare/Medicaid without a doubt, but then again that requires fixing the entire healthcare system in this country. Which is what the discussion is all about.

Of course, any and all current deficits that add to the national debt decrease the amount of future capital we have to work with due to interest payments. So deficits now for one reason impact deficits later for another, simply because of the interest on the debt.

I feel we’re talking past each other, because this is stuff you already know…

Except it doesn’t work this way in the real world. Tiny Tim’s Dad will do just about anything to keep Tiny Tim alive. I know that if my son needed an operation or he’d die and we couldn’t pay for it, I’d make the movie John Q Public look like a fairy tale.

I.e., “Death Panels”.

There are many other savings to be had. Our system is extremely inefficient, with administrative costs and profits taking up way too many dollars. Our paperwork system is a mess, contributing to the administrative problems. The price inelasticity drives drug prices to absurd heights while other countries spend half as much on drugs, in part because the single largest buyer of drugs (the US Government) can’t negotiate prices. We allow anti-competitive behaviors so that individuals paying in cash cannot get the same prices as negotiated by the insurance companies.

There’s huge savings out there to be had just by making the system far more efficient.

For example, what if doctors were required to offer you the same price Big Insurance pays for the same procedure so long as you paid for the procedure up front. In other words, what would happen if we stopped the price fixing in this industry? How many people would migrate to plans that had large ($3k - $5k) deductibles that could help drive down the cost of care?

What would happen if John Q Public actually could get drugs from other countries? How would the inevitable free market response help drive down the cost of drugs sold in this country?

What would happen if the US Government could actually use their buying power to negotiate drug prices for Medicare/Medicaid recipients? The Vet Department pays 58% less for drugs on average than Medicare Part D because they can negotiate. Imagine the savings…

One major problem is that we’re not even using health care “insurance” in the right way. You only insure against large losses. It’s a cardinal rule of insurance. But instead, we have $40 of paperwork being processed for a $60 office checkup. What happens when we push people to start paying for care out of pocket by covering only large losses? What happens when we gently push employers to get out of the insurance business and just pay the employees directly so that consumers can make their own choices in an open market?

There are so many ways to do this. While I’m a fan of single payer simply because I think it’s probably by far the most efficient system out there, even free market solutions like the ones above are obvious, doable and help curb costs.

Except it doesn’t work this way in the real world. Tiny Tim’s Dad will do just about anything to keep Tiny Tim alive. I know that if my son needed an operation or he’d die and we couldn’t pay for it, I’d make the movie John Q Public look like a fairy tale.

Yes, but imagine the reverse, where you’re the old guy in the hospital, who needs a super expensive procedure to keep you alive.

I think there are situations where many would choose to die, rather than put their families into debt.

Gotta run, but I’ll check into the next part of your post later on this evening and reply. Don’t want to just give some half-assed reply to that section.

So would going all in on socialized medicine cost more or less than the private healthcare at this point? You’d have to raise taxes, including corporate taxes, but corporations would be able to eliminate the expense of healthcare plans, unless they wanted to continue to offer some kind of plan as an incentive to retain employees.

It seems like it would be a social good, and I’m not convinced that private healthcare really has its costs regulated well by the free market system. So if the chief advantage of a free market system, competition that reduces costs and improves services, isn’t really there, why not go to socialized medicine?

The free market system should still provide alternative care that may be better. That would service the wealthy more than anyone else, but at least it would be there for them. I’d hate for Sarah Palin to have to go up in front of a Death Panel someday. She should have the money to avoid that.

Overall? Significantly less, judging by per-patient costs in socialized countries.

For upper-middle class and lower earners? Anywhere from “less” to “significantly less”.

For the super rich? More. Much more.

Single payer HC signed into law:

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/26/vermont-governor-single-payer/

Last month, the Vermont Senate passed legislation, approved earlier by the House, that would establish a single payer health care system in the state. The legislation would make Vermont the first state in the nation to, as Gov. Peter Shumlin (D) said, make health care “a right and not a privilege.”

The governor’s office just confirmed for ThinkProgress that Shumlin signed the legislation into law this morning,

I’m not sure if this will work in the US considering our costs and the insurance situation, but I’m damned glad to see someone giving it a try instead of cowering under FUD.

H.

No, no we don’t. It’s a patch, like Howard Dean signing the Civil Union law (behind closed doors, with no cameras present, so it wouldn’t hurt him politically later in his career).

There are too many unanswered questions. This just gives us the go-ahead to try and find a way forward.

As the local press tells it:

Well hey, you can’t be a progressive without wanting progress. Way to go!

H.

Austin Frakt details some of the challenges in the nitty gritty of the PPACA exchange subsidies.

Over at The Incidental Economist, Don Taylor is doing a series of posts regarding the cost of smoking. It’s sort of addressing the commonly held myth that smokers incur lower lifetime healthcare costs because they don’t live as long.

The first post is an overview, with this awesome lede:

The second post breaks down the cost of smoking on a per-pack basis and arrives at 40 dollars per pack. It includes graphs!

The Incidental Economist has become my favorite economics blog.

How does the cost of smoking on society match up with the costs of overeating/eating poorly?

That would be a fascinating comparison.

“Cost per pack” is rather silly since it’s heavily dependent on the actual number of packs smoked by a specific person per year. If you smoke rarely the cost beyond the purchase price is close to zero, whereas the heaviest smokers are likely to incur the lion’s share of that average. You might as well try to calculate the average social cost of a beer or hamburger while ignoring that some people are dysfunctional alcoholics or morbidly overweight, and others are not.