Vanguard: Saga of Heroes finds a new home ... with SOE

Seawolf, meet Brad McQuaid. Brad McQuaid, this is Seawolf. He expects not to be annoyed by you.

Its very misleading based on what is plastered on the front of the magazine. I’m a regular subscriber and only somewhat interested in the game so it wasn’t a big deal to me when I found out it doesn’t get you into the game right away. I can see some annoyed people who might buy the magazine off the rack thinking they can get in with the code then find it just puts them into the que for it.

Now I see why the prices of the All-Access package jumped up a few dollars.

I don’t see Vanguard as competing with EQ2 or WoW. It’s closer to competing with EQ1 than EQ2 or WoW. It’s targeted at high-end players (hardcore raiders, grinders, etc), not the types who play EQ2 or WoW and can see themselves sticking around those worlds for a long time. It’s targeted at the people who believe reaching Level 60 is the beginning of the game in WoW.

There seem to be quite a few people playing WoW, EQ1, and EQ2 as they wait to see what Vanguard brings to the table.

Who the hell has the time to play 3 MMOs at once?


I got the All Access thingy so I could play Planetside + EQ2, since it was cheaper and i got the extra content that I will never see… And then I play WOW and EVE as well.

Which basically means I get nowhere in either game, except for Planetside (since its easymode) and WOW (since I played it a LOT before I went back to EQ2/PS/EVE).

Anyway; I do not like the price increase on All Access and was considering cancelling my subscription.

If you ask me, Tanarus was the best game SOE ever made. :-)

Yeah I have the All Access Pass as well and I guess its not a bad deal but realy the only game I play ATM is EQ2. I was thinking about picking up Matrix on line just to see how much it sucked but I dunno if I wanna dump 30 bucks on it.

It says “BETA TEST VANGUARD: EXCLUSIVE ACCESS CODE INSIDE.” The promotions would have said “RIGHT NOW!” if that’s what they were meant to convey. It doesn’t give any date for the beta anywhere.

Anyway, there was a minor delay because of this change in publishers. Sigil has said they’ll start letting people in after E3, in batches. The issue has only been available for a week, so it’s not like people will have to wait months. (I hope.)

It was .01 at Best Buy not that long ago. Hopefully the price hasn’t gone up too much more since then.

Good move by Microsoft. Every time I see Vanguard, it goes from “wow, that’s way too complex” to “christ, your answer was to make it MORE complex?”

Everything about it seems like the opposite of what’s fun in an MMO. 16 steps to making an freaking iron ingot in crafting? Where do I sign up?

It’s like an MMO designed by people who thing bigger numbers = better game. More land mass is better, right? Even if most of it is boring and there’s no teleporting or really fast travel. More steps in crafting even the simplest stuff - ingredients for other things - makes it more fun for crafters, right? The interface is a mess, the whole world/monster AI stuff seems like it’s a generation behind…

The game is just going to tank, I betcha. Microsoft was wise to get rid of it. By the time it comes out, the other top MMOs will look way more “next generation” than vanguard, and they’ll be much easier to play and get into.

Vanguard seems like it’s an MMO targeting the 10,000 most hardcore catass players in the world.

People are saying this is because Sigil probably didn’t want to “dumb it down for the 360.” Sigil needs to dumb it down for the PC, and in a big way.

I personally have no interest in Vanguard, but for once it’s nice to see a developer not dumbing something down for the masses. I’m so sick of watered down shit.

There’s some truth to this, sure, but there definitely is a market–I do not know how large–for games that are more challenging (even, by many players’ standards, more frustrating) than the games that are available now.

And you don’t have to be a catasser of epic proportions to want things like meaningful death penalties and more difficulty in MMOs, given the path many MMOs are taking today.

That isn’t to say, though, whether Vanguard will sink or swim. It could be good, it could be awful. But there is definitely a market for their approach.

Yes there’s a market for it.

The size of that market does not justify Vanguards budget though.

That’s just it. Modern-day MMOs need really big budgets to be competitive. And I realize there’s a market for the game they’re making; I was only half-kidding when I said it was 10,000 people. It’s maybe 100,000. I don’t think that kind of subscriber base warrants the cost of development and, more importantly, maintenance.

I can’t disagree more completely with the “yay for them not watering it down for the masses” argument. A simple and intuitive interface, and a good ratio of time spent to rewards, doesn’t mean the game is watered-down. Vaguard is in dire need of some simplification - notice I said SIMPLE. I don’t consider chess a “watered-down” game, but it’s very SIMPLE.

Developers confusing complexity for depth is a real problem in this industry, and Vanguard is the best example of it I can think of. MMOs need to become RICHER, not just MORE.

Who ever said that well-designed, intuitive user-interfaces have anything to do with dumbing down games?

One of the things that is passing under the sight is that SOE has the rights for the DC Comics super-hero mmorpg, Sigil has the right for the Marvel one.

Assuming you mean what I think you mean.

I never ‘got’ how people can say this about MMOs.

Like my friend who loved Everquest/EQ2 and thinks it is a much better game than world of warcraft. He thinks everquest/eq2 is a better game because it takes longer time to get to higher levels than in WoW, saying that WoW is too easy. I guess too easy = Dumbed Down?

What exactly is dumbed down in the non-vanguard MMOs and why is that (not dumbed down, but the difference) a bad thing?

Brad, meet gamer too braindead from playing games when he should be sleeping and sleeping when he should be…doing what again? I dunno…to remember or do some research :)

The bottom line is the hardcore don’t like the masses to be apart of their “elite club”. WoW made it so you didn’t have to sell your life to get high in the game and be able to see the endgame content. They think that games like WoW don’t make you “earn” it so the game’s not as satisfying.

I agree with this, and would add to it a bit. When reflecting on goal attainment, people not only compare their accomplishments to others, but also assess how personally difficult it was to achieve the goal. The more barriers there are, the more likely people decide the end goal was extremely worthwhile and valuable.

We think this is because folks have a natural tendency to see their decision-making ability as above average. It would threaten our positive self-perception to conclude that something we just spent a lot of time and effort on (for MMOs, this would be time spent getting maximum level, raiding or farming for loot or zone unlocking, the cost of subscriptions) was trivial or worthless. So instead we view the goal as proving our hardcore l33tness, and defend the barriers as separating the real achievers from the posers/casuals. This leads to a reduction in threat to our self esteem.

This is one factor that explains the greater cohesiveness of groups with high entry requirements (e.g., elite military forces, exclusive country clubs, some fraternal organizations) compared with groups with low entry requirements. It’s also why I believe that Vanguard can succeed, although at a much smaller scale than WoW.

I’m all for elitist gaming… but what’s up with making it based on old broken down design decisions?