No, I suppose most of us have a concern with people who seem to be quite willing to legislate religion. Like those pleasant chaps in Iran that endorsed Bush.
I don’t want gays getting married. Vote Bush! He’s not gay!
etc
With all respect, Tyler, but I don’t see the left having completely reality-disconnected views on what marks a good president. Can the 35% having “moral issues” as main reason for voting isn’t political extremism from a wing, that’s a majority of the voters.
More tomorrow, but people who live according to religious beliefs or “morally” believe they are logically basing their whole belief system on what is right and wrong. Kerry can separate his faith’s anti-abortion stance from the legality of it. A large portion of church-goers do not see that as possible. THeir lives revolve around God, believe our country was established based on Biblical laws, and will make decisions based on beliefs that are as much a part of them as eating or breathing.
Rightly or wrongly, this has been the case for years in the US. I do not see this as some recent groundswell that is overtaking the country. Religious folks are generally more conservative and so easily fit into the Republican stereotype. When the Republicans have the presidency, the other side needs a wacko scapegoat. Republicans blamed commie liberals. I am not really afraid either pole is going to run us into a pit of hellfire or a socialist cesspool.
I am a bit tired, not sure if this makes sense. WIll clarify on the morrow as will surely be needed. :)
lol come on. There are maybe a handful of right wing christian nutcases willing to kill people over their issues. Compare that to the number of muslims willing to blow up kids over theirs. Its no contest.
olaf
A large portion of church-goers do not see that as possible.
Ty, that isn’t what confuses me. What confuses me is why abortion & gays have become so closely tied into religion, and why that has become so central to their worldview.
Didn’t have to be that way; hasn’t been that way in Europe, and among the people it has mattered it doesn’t drive their vote.
I don’t understand it. Need to do more reading.
Weren’t The Crusades about a bunch of Christians willing to kill and die over their religion?
What’s hard to understand? People feel strongly in religious beliefs.
Imo, the election was lost about six years ago with the Clinton scandal. I still think the Democratic party hasn’t rebounded from that fiasco. Every Bush supporter I know isn’t completely religious nuts, but alot of them jsut don’t like Democrats anymore… they believe most democrats are lifetime politicians and care less about the people and more about there career. The country swung even farther to the right after 9/11, what with the zeitgest of a semi religious war between christian vs muslim worldview. It won’t last forever, but I see it continuing until either our economy hits rock bottom (oil prices still havent died down), the War in Iraq isn’t resolved, and or more annoyed workers find out that 10 - 15 dollars an hour isn’t really much of a career. All of this might not happen, but the next four years will be rough.
Honestly I didn’t think Kerry would win becuase most people seem to be willing to ‘ride out’ with Dubya. Hey we can all hope Bush wises up can’t we? I doubt it though.
I hope Kerry just concedes… this country doesn’t need another Florida. ANd it will hurt the Democrats in 2008.
etc
Absolutely! And the difference is Christianity escaped the dark ages. Islam has not.
olaf
We had something called the Enlightenment… it may have passed you by. :roll:
We had something called the Enlightenment… it may have passed you by. :roll:[/quote]
Says Hitler and Stalin.
etc
Absolutely! And the difference is Christianity escaped the dark ages. Islam has not.
olaf[/quote]
I think its rather that Islam fell into a Dark Age. If your in a reading mood try the following article in the New York Review Of Books.
We had something called the Enlightenment… it may have passed you by. :roll:[/quote]
Says Hitler and Stalin.
etc[/quote]
lol both notorious christians.
olaf
Ok, so what do you base your beliefs on?
I don’t see why everone thinks it’s so completely unreasonable to consider that the “zealots” believe that protecting the lives of children is enough to resolve their choice in just about any election. If one candidate says “I will do my best to stop the killing of unborn children” and the other candidate says “I am a Christian, and I believe that killing unborn children is wrong, but I’m not going to do anything to try and stop it, because it might hurt my political career,” why are you suprised that the “religious right” vote for Candidate A over Candidate B, regardless of what else either of them support?
And “legislating religion” is a flimsy argument regarding abortion, because many of us who are anti-abortion equate abortion with murder. If murder can be outlawed, when that’s essentially a “moral” or “religious” choice, then why not abortion?
Personally, I don’t think I’m as over-the-top hardcore as the people you seem to paint pictures of…But then, I’m not sure I’ve ever met anyone like the people you talk about, and I live in the middle of the freakin’ Bible-belt. Is abortion my only concern? No. But it’s at the very top of my list.
Flame away, as I’m sure you will. But don’t make it seem so absurd that people vote their conscience, because we have to. I’d have a hard time sleeping at night if I endorsed someone who said “I think abortion is wrong, but I’m not going to do anything to try and stop it, even though I might be in a position to do so.” Screw that.
Murph, we understand they’re voting their conscience. We don’t understand why that’s their conscience.
Absolutely! And the difference is Christianity escaped the dark ages. Islam has not.
It has? You dont think if Georgies gang had free reign that they wouldn’t plunge us into another dark age before you could say the word “Creationism”? Christianity has never had any kind of record for being hot on knowledge, the exploration of knowledge, the discovery of knowledge or the acceptance and dissemination of knowledge at any time in its history. Its track record on practicising the basic tenets of its dogma are also notoriously bad (all that garbage about tolerance, love, forgiveness and something about a bloke who had the temerity to say “lets be nice to each other” getting nailed to a bit of wood). How do you think we ended up in a Dark age in the first place?
There are already loud mutterings from the scientific community that anything that doesn’t fit into W’s gang’s world picture gets it’s funding cut in the US and from AIDS charities complaining that those not actively promoting abstentionism over contraception are finding they get their aid cut as well to name just a couple of examples of the enlightened policies being persued by an apparently overtly Christian US government (and I thought State and religion were supposed to be separate in the US?).
If we leave the US specifically, do you need reminding that it was Christians slaughtering Muslims in Kosovo? That numerous christian countries enthusiastically employ the death penalty, torture prisoners, supress women and all the other things we like to snort at as evidence of a barbaric culture called Islam.
Ok, so what do you base your beliefs on?[/quote]
(Sorry. I may have been rambling a bit much at that point.)
I just meant that their view of right and wrong is Biblically based and at the core of their being. Whereas, many Democrats would prefer these people seperate their faith from their thoughts for the direction of the country and make a decisons outside of their religious background. I am clumsily attempting to say why that is an impossibility.
Frankly, I do not have a problem with Bush stating he prays over his decisions. His religious beliefs and desires for the country are one in the same. People who vote for him know this and trust that his faith based decisions will most closely mirror theirs.
I agree with you Z. Everyone’s belief system is based on something. Be it studies, upbringing, parent’s beliefs, church beliefs, friend’s beliefs, environment, and on and on. Usually a combination of several. We cannot base all of our decisions on straight cold logic because our passions and gut feelings enter into it for everyone like it or not. My beliefs follow Christian teachings more than anything else and while I do not pray over my votes or every decision I make, I concede that they do have an affect.
Jeez, I hope that did not muddy my explanation further.
It’s not an impossibility. That’s the way it works in most Western democracies and even here. A President’s faith has never mattered as much as it does now - in this election. In Europe, a candidate who evoked God would likely lose the election (even religious people aren’t comfortable with overt-political religious expression). Religion used to be a private matter. So, this is a new thing Tyjenks.
OK, I’ll buy that. Just because it was not overt does not mean that people did not believe their candidate prayed over every decision. I am sure many President’s have. I believe many in the South and Midwest infer that their candidate, by being Conservative and sharing views with them, go to church and that God factors in to their decisions. Whether politicians do or not, it comforts conservative Christians to think that.
I see your point and I believe Presidents have a duty to not trumpet their faith resulting in the alienation of a portion of the country, but if it works and gets them elected, it will continue. IMO, it is not leading us into a Theocracy.