Walking Dead on AMC

Hugin · 2011-11-28T14:01:14.000Z

jerri blank:

I see Herschel’s attitude as analogous to maybe having a loved one in an incurable state on a ventilator and not wanting to let them go, common sense to the contrary, because you think they might get better. Or keeping around someone you care about who you know can hurt you but thinking you can fix them somehow.

I wouldn’t call him insane, but he’s irrational, and we’ve all been there.

Yeah, it’s a coping mechanism. We’ve seen other people can’t deal with it and commit suicide. Others have been nearly paralyzed at the prospect of having to kill former loved ones, to the point of almost getting killed themselves. If there’s a chance this can be cured, then the world isn’t irrevocably broken and there’s a reason to get up in the morning.

walTer · 2011-11-28T14:02:39.000Z

Someone on a ventilator doesn’t want to eat your brains though. That is the part, for me anyway, that moves him from irrational to pretty dang nutty.

Then again, the look on his face after the shooting started seemed to bring him back to some degree of reality.

Telefrog · 2011-11-28T14:14:43.000Z

I get the whole coping mechanism part, but the analogy falls down when you consider that there is a world of difference between someone in a vegetative state, or with an illness, versus people who are rotting, dead, and snarling to eat other people. That’s not about holding out hope or being a man of faith. That’s about being nuts.

I’m not going to get into a debate about whether or not believing in miracles is a mental defect, but this isn’t a man putting his faith into God. This is a man whose mind has clearly broken when it comes to what happened. He’s not just irrational. On this subject, he’s lost his mind.

Relayer71 · 2011-11-28T14:19:24.000Z

Shane needs to be put down. He could have gotten his point across without resorting to dickery.

Hugin · 2011-11-28T14:21:33.000Z

Telefrog:

I get the whole coping mechanism part, but the analogy falls down when you consider that there is a world of difference between someone in a vegetative state, or with an illness, versus people who are rotting, dead, and snarling to eat other people. That’s not about holding out hope or being a man of faith. That’s about being nuts.

I’m not going to get into a debate about whether or not believing in miracles is a mental defect, but this isn’t a man putting his faith into God. This is a man whose mind has clearly broken when it comes to what happened. He’s not just irrational. On this subject, he’s lost his mind.

On the other hand, none of them have any data whatsoever as to what causes this. Bacteria? Virus? Radiation? Magic? Scientifically speaking zombieism makes no sense at all.

So holding out hope for an unlikely and irrational fix for it isn’t much worse than the practical acceptance of the unlikely and irrational existence of the problem in the first place.

Telefrog · 2011-11-28T14:26:23.000Z

Hugin:

So holding out hope for an unlikely and irrational fix for it isn’t much worse than the practical acceptance of the unlikely and irrational existence of the problem in the first place.

Except the unlikely and irrational problem, along with the danger, exists right now.

I’m not going to wait for a miracle when the rotting undead are trying to eat my flesh.

Shadarr · 2011-11-28T14:30:47.000Z

Relayer71:

Shane needs to be put down. He could have gotten his point across without resorting to dickery.

Yeah, I was really rooting for Dale to grow a pair. Even if he regretted it immediately after, even if Shane survived, it would’ve at least shown that he wasn’t a total pussy. But apparently he is.

Martinez · 2011-11-28T14:31:06.000Z

I’d petition Shane to leave… voted off the island. He seems unbalanced in a violent way. I imagine him being the anti-hershel. Both are mental, but opposite.

I can’t wait to see what Hershell does. Feb can’t come fast enough!

bluemax · 2011-11-28T14:47:19.000Z

Slainte Mhath:

Bottom line, this show is stalling big time. It’s gone from being an exciting and geniunely scary story about a zombie apocalypse (remember how those first couple of episodes with Rick waking up and the Lennie James side story felt?) to a mostly boring and trite character melodrama about relationships and how people fall apart under stress. That stuff is fine, as long as you don’t lose site of the reason said people are under stress, the zombie freaking apocalypse.

So it is exactly like the comic book! I wondered how long it would take before this backlash came about. This is why I didn’t even bother with the show.

drewl · 2011-11-28T15:18:35.000Z

Crazy or not, I’d want Shane around…SOB can shoot!

loved how he proved his point to Herschel, and absolutely Rick had to do what he did.
He felt responsible and stepped up and took care of the matter while the others were still taking it all in.

So good, I watched it again at 11pm.

Stepsongrapes · 2011-11-28T15:28:29.000Z

Relayer71:

Shane needs to be put down. He could have gotten his point across without resorting to dickery.

I think the whole issue is that Shane is right (from a cold, practical perspective). For example, they should have moved on from the farm a while ago. Similarly, the odds of the girl surviving past 48 hrs was near zero.

As Dale puts it, he’s the right man for the post-ZA world. Rick is clearly the better man for the pre-ZA world.

The conflict inherent in the show is which is better- keeping your humanity or survival? Clearly, both have their costs.

gameoverman · 2011-11-28T16:19:22.000Z

I see where Dale is coming from re Shane.

A major world altering event that changes things can, but doesn’t have to, change people. This apocalypse has changed Shane, whereas Dale is the same Dale as before the walkers appeared.

I’d like to think I’d be the same. I wouldn’t kill a guy like Shane, without cause, since that’s not how I am, and Dale I guess is the same way. Shane though seems to be one of those people who sees an event like this as an opportunity to reinvent himself into who he really wanted to be but couldn’t(society kept him in check).

Angrycoder · 2011-11-28T17:07:19.000Z

Relayer71:

Shane needs to be put down. He could have gotten his point across without resorting to dickery.

Shane doesn’t need the rest of the group, the group needs shane.

Brian_Seiler · 2011-11-28T17:26:42.000Z

My convincedness that I know what the last scene of this season is going to be has only increased. They’re setting it up pretty well. I was kind of expecting them to pull it out by the end of this episode. They should probably get on that, though - this group dynamic is okay for the short term, but it’s a little extremely stressful to watch.

I do have some minor quibbles with the timeline. Specifically, I’m not sure if enough time passed from the losing of the girl to the shooting of Carl (after which Otis was consistently occupied), but that’s a minor quibble.

Shadarr · 2011-11-28T17:31:50.000Z

Stepsongrapes:

As Dale puts it, he’s the right man for the post-ZA world. Rick is clearly the better man for the pre-ZA world.

I don’t think it’s that simple. Shane would make a terrible leader because his people wouldn’t trust him. A group is stronger than any individual, but Shane’s “good of the many” philosophy weakens the very group he thinks he’s protecting. Rick may be a little less brutally logical, but the very fact that he is willing to go to great lengths to protect and rescue his people is what will hold the group together. With Shane, people would know that they could be cast aside at any moment if he deemed it expedient. That would be a morale killer.

Stepsongrapes · 2011-11-28T18:22:52.000Z

Shadarr:

I don’t think it’s that simple. Shane would make a terrible leader because his people wouldn’t trust him. A group is stronger than any individual, but Shane’s “good of the many” philosophy weakens the very group he thinks he’s protecting. Rick may be a little less brutally logical, but the very fact that he is willing to go to great lengths to protect and rescue his people is what will hold the group together. With Shane, people would know that they could be cast aside at any moment if he deemed it expedient. That would be a morale killer.

As I said, each has their costs (Shane vs. Rick). The show is clearly setting up the issue though: should you let the ZA change you, and how much?

Shane and Rick demonstrate extremes. I don’t think it’s hard to say that Rick is too inflexible about adapting to the ZA. He did run off and leave his newly-found wife and kids unguarded to potentially rescue one-hand guy. What if he didn’t come back? What if the group lost its best fighters and weapons? But, would it have been better to leave the guy?

It’s easier to look at Shane and say that “I’m not that guy”, but surely partly being that guy would be a necessary thing, or at least the practical thing to do. Me and mine first and foremost is not an irrational position- heck it’s biological.

Desslock · 2011-11-28T19:20:31.000Z

Few thoughts:

I don’t blame Herschel for not believing, or at least accepting, that the infected “people” are supernatural monsters. After all - it’d take a hell of a lot to suddenly believe in flying men, unicorns, mermaids, Godzilla, and the dead coming back to life - those are all equally preposterous premises, which it’s easy to lose track of since we’re so accustomed to the genre - especially since he hasn’t been as exposed to the outside world since everything went to crap.
Shane definitely seems too angry and out of control to be leader…but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t completely right and the surprising voice of reason in this episode. I wanted him to boot Dale into the swamp for taking the guns - it was insane to not have guns, it was nutty to leave undead carnivorous monsters in a barn next to their camp, it was unrealistic to think the child could still be alive after they’d searched the area for days, they can’t just leave the only seemingly sustainable sanctuary they’d found because an insane old guy still believes things are normal - Shane was basically right in all respects, and it’s pretty understandable that he’d be angry about everyone around him not doing the obvious things that needed to be done. They needed their guns, they needed to get rid of a clear threat, and they couldn’t leave the best place they’d found to date when it was in everyone’s interest (including Herschel) that they stay. I wanted to cheer when Shane told Dale to shut the fuck up and just give the guns over.

Great finale - completely redeemed the season, and the slow pace of the search made for a better payoff. It also gave characters and relationships additional time to develop - something that’s sadly lacking in the comic - they’re not always smart, or sympathetic or considerate, or attractive, or unemotional and rational - but the growth of the group seems authentic and is fun to watch.

jerri_blank · 2011-11-28T20:07:12.000Z

Last night on Talking Dead, Hardwick suggested to Kirkman that they do some webisodes to show what happened to Sophia after she got separated from Rick.

No way in HELL would I watch that. (shudder)

Aeon221 · 2011-11-28T20:13:12.000Z

ep 206 was pretty good. Apparently the on demand stuff is a week behind on AMC, which is fairly irritating.

corsair · 2011-11-28T21:43:30.000Z

Angrycoder:

Shane doesn’t need the rest of the group, the group needs shane.

Shane may have his points, but ultimately, he is an untrustworthy, self-centered coward. He effectively killed one guy who was doing his best to help him, he thought real hard about killing his best friend, he’s first in line to bail on others. Yeah, he can shoot, trouble is I wouldn’t trust him to point the gun in the right direction. He thinks he can make the tough decisions that Rick can’t and that makes hi better in the current situation - it might, if he wasn’t such a dick.

He wasn’t right to give up on Sophia - it met a number of needs to stay at Hershel’s farm for the time being, and they might as well search for her while they get themselves in order. Now, if they were still on the highway, exposed, sure; but then the others would have agreed to push on had that been the case.