1881

Yeah, but people play characters not sides. If half of the classes are more powerful on Order side, and half are more powerful on Destruction, you’ll probably see most people gravitating towards the more powerful classes on each side, resulting in less diversity.

1882

Yep time to roll a Witch Elf, or just quit war and play WOTLK.

Next, someone is going to tell me that it’s ok that the one side have access to better skills, because people like destruction, first the bonus xp/renown, next all destruction players deal 50% less damage and move 50% slower.

1883

I don’t think that’s true. Or if it is they’ve already lost. Warhammer isn’t designed to be about picking a character and playing him as an isolated individual. The entire game forces you to team up for rewards and glory. I don’t see PQ’s and solo questing as the game, really, so much as I think it’s the social lubricant which helps keep you around and ease you into the game: RvR, whether it be scenarios or open-realm. They certainly have issues to address in terms of promoting open-realm and getting people invested, but I don’t think anyone is going to toss over WoW for the PvE in Warhammer, even if it is every bit as competent: It’s just not designed to cater to the solitary player in the same way that WoW is and I don’t anticipate that it ever will be.

So if the choice comes down to asymmetric with lopsided matchups or “Oh, you’re the bad guys so you’re an ice wizard instead of a fire wizard… oh, but their chick is HOT, play her!” I’ll take the former. Everything I’ve seen so far leads me to believe that’s where they’re going with the game, including their background in DAoC which had some wildly asymmetric class possibilities. I hope I’m right in what they’ll be pursuing going forward, because your and Idrisz’ game sounds bland and uninteresting in comparison, but time will tell I suppose.

1884

So since you’re not attached to the side/guild you’re part of (since you’re willing to chuck it all for the perceived imbalance here anyway) why not just roll a bright wizard to start with?

I’m amused that you’re bitching about imbalance when the relatively minor differences you’re discussing are trivial compared to trying to hold a keep or even a battlefield objective with 3:1 odds. But, hey, those BW’s sure are too powerful, aren’t they! Come on, switch over to the side which ought to be nerfed, then! Order can use all the converts it can get, even if they’re all BWs!

1885

Sure, but that doesn’t mean people won’t act selfishly when it comes to something as major as deciding what character to invest their time in. In WoW or whatever standard MMO, tanks and healers are very important to groups, but soloing is easier as a DPS class. The consequence is that the LFG channel is filled with people saying “need healer and tank then GTG!”, despite the fact that you need only one of each to make a good 5 man group.

I’m certainly not arguing for perfect symmetry. I played a lot of PvP in LotRO where the sides are much more asymmetric than they are in WAR and I loved it. (Of course, LotRO had the advantage of one side basically not having any PvE, which made balancing a little easier because there were less consequences.) I’m just pointing out that it has to be done carefully, or WAR could end up with Order being 90% BWs or whatever, despite the fact that this is bad overall for Order.

1886

Witch Elf isn’t order.

If order classes were any interesting I would, just like I play horde instead alliance in WoW.

Did I call for BW nerf anywhere in my post, why can’t a balance post be about buffing one class instead nerfing the other, or do you secretly think that BW is overpowered and deserve a nerf?

1887

Order already is 90% Bright Wizards. (Well, no. It’s not. But they’re one of the most popular classes on the side.)

That Sorc/BW comparison is interesting to me, because the friend I play with plays Bright Wizard, and was bitching about how Chaos Magi had essentially the same (pre-combustion) base damage and way more survivability, along with some other tricks he envied.

Me? I think people just have greener grass syndrome. Hell, I played a DoK in beta and was grumpy with the perceived inadequacies of the Warrior Priest I went with on Order - not just the heal debuff thing, which I hadn’t noticed, having only played the Disciple through T1, but things like Disciples having a melee skill that gives their defensive target a strength buff and their offensive target a strength debuff. WPs only get the buff (unless they spec Grace and take a tactic that ups it to a strength and toughness buff with associated debuff on the enemy). And their group buff that procs heals is mirrored on the Disciple with a group buff that procs lifesteals. But you know, I still love my WP. And I wouldn’t be at all surprised if we get compensated in other ways.

I don’t want “mirror” classes to be actual, literal mirrors. I want twenty (well, 24, eventually) unique classes that fulfill equivalent roles for their faction.

1888

I see almost as many Sorc as BWs. They’re both way overrepresented.

1889

This is why I hate how Mythic’s devs are nowhere to be found on the forums, till you don’t find out what goes on in patch notes.

I do not usually engage in class balance discussions because I don’t know the details, but with this thing about BW/Sorc my reaction would be wanting to hear the “other side”.

If Mythic actually cared to explain their design, then maybe we would be able to see where the game is going and what balances to expect. Instead either people bail off because of their perception, or discover changes in patch notes and will likely be upset one way or another anyway.

Delicate design points don’t just need to be “correct”, they also need to be explained well to the community.

1890

Why? Are you under the impression that Mythic saying “No, really, we meant it this way!” is somehow going to magically change people’s perceptions of imbalance?

1891

I like how they seem to have redone the points on Mourkain Temple, as it seems the ball handler doen’t provide much. We did several scenarios last night and won most of them, even though we did not have the ball at all. Just sit back, outside the Chaos base on the hill, and kill the stragglers who charged our lines.

And here is always stragglers. Usually WE’s, mabye a tank or so, and the occasional Maurader.

And group play in Scenarios is where it’s at. Taking a full, coordinated group with Vent makes a serious impact in the quality of your gaming session and drasticly increases the chance of winning, despite having the other half of the team be random. Overall our DPS output is signifigantly higher since we get healed more often. I know for myself as a WH my dps generally increases by about 30-50% if I’m in a group.

1892

Nope, but then most of those people will be like “AHhh, I see.”, and promptly re-roll or quit the game.

1893

The article on that blog was one directional. Either it the only perspective, and so the class needs to be changed, or Mythic’s devs have a logic justification to have built it that way.

Motivating a design choice is necessary. You may or not convince or persuade the players, but at least they’ll stay or quit knowing the reasons. And if a discussions goes on, at least it will go on on more solid basis.

1894

I think the big thing skewing perceptions and maybe reality about class balance is that right now everyone pretty much is in scenarios 24/7. In open-field RvR, the classes all really fit together pretty well, but in scenarios, there are some real oddities it seems. I’m pretty convinced an Order side of nothing but BWs could win most scenarios through T3. Really; they consistently outdamage pretty much everyone including Sorcs, and I’ve faced upwards of half a dozen in a single scenario sometimes. They’re not individually overpowered–one v. one they are easy kills for a WE for instance–but together in a small place with little maneuvering they tend to be perhaps stronger than anticipated. Ironbreakers too are far and away better in scenarios than Chosen or BOs, from my experience.

I don’t think this means much though, for the game a whole. If open-field RvR gets more traction, things will definitely balance out. My two main characters, Witch Elf and Magus, do well in scenarios but are much more fun in the open field, really. Right now the game’s focus, scenarios, tends to really privilege burst damage. DoTs can do good stuff but clearly in many situations the BWs’ DoTs are more effective than, say, the Magus’ or Sorcs. I think it’s because in scenarios the longer-lasting and overall high damage DoTs don’t get to play out as much, and the shorter duration damage spells tend to work better.

I haven’t done a statistical comparison, and I don’t have the date to do it anyhow. I am not really worried about anything except the lack of true tank roles for tank classes. Coming form EQ2 PvP where tanks could actually taunt you off targets and force you target them in PvP, and where the PvE is very much “oh my God we need a tank or we’re doomed!” WAR is really light on its need for real tankage except for Hero mobs and some final PQ stages.

1895

Delete the bald dude and you’re golden :)

1896

I thought combustion was just a cool-down enforcer to reduce chain DPS (boom, there goes another over-eager BW). What does it do to damage?

1897

Massive bonuses to crit chance and crit damage.

1898

Crit damage is already double damage - combustion makes it triple, and almost guaranteed. But the wizard will blow himself up without a healer. No way around it - he blows up :)

1899

I love my Chosen… I think the only correct way to play a Chosen is to charge recklessly and have someone behind you to heal. If you don’t, you’re kinda screwed. But I have no problem running into the mob, and it gets the people behind you to join in for the most part. Chosen aren’t DPS, and watching them sit back is really annoying when I’m playing one of my other characters. But yeah, they’re only really fun to play if your team is keeping pace with you as you run suicide style into the melee.

Erik J.

1900

But the Sorc is the highest DPS class on the destro side. Why would playing one make you want to quit?