In france, it was really a catestrophic failure of their government and healtcare system to deal with it.

Most folks apparently don’t have AC there, and a huge portion of their healthcare workforce was on vacation. Seriously, motherfucking vacation. Some of the hospitals during that event had whole wings shut down at the time, as they were temporarily downsized while workers were taking summer breaks, resulting in less capacity to deal with the incoming patients.

That makes sense, i suppose atleast they were not all on strike and burning lorries of sheep (i think that is tradition?).


‘Canada must deal with tar sands emissions, says Clinton campaign chief’:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/28/canada-must-deal-with-tar-sands-emissions-says-clinton-campaign-chief

‘Global Apollo programme seeks to make clean energy cheaper than coal’:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jun/02/apollo-programme-for-clean-energy-needed-to-tackle-climate-change

Dude. Yes, many people in France take extended vacations in the summer. In fact, large portions of the world slow down during the summer, or during Ramadan or equivalent. Just because we in North America think 2 weeks off per year is enough for single mothers of small children earning minimum wage (if they’re lucky enough to have a full time job instead of multiple part-time), doesn’t mean the rest of the world agrees. So from another perspective, your apparent bewilderment/disdain at French people going on vacation does itself seem fairly petty, doesn’t it? Also if you read the wikipedia, you’d realize it was not just ‘unseasonably warm’, but a full-on natural disaster. It was several subsequent days of record breaking temperatures both daytime and night-time, including in some places the hottest day in centuries. And it didn’t occur in Air-Conditioned Texas, but in a region of France that is well-known to have moderate temperatures, such that people don’t need and don’t own air conditioners. And tell me, in contrast, how did the USA government at various levels perform in it’s well-known natural weather disaster from the mid-2000’s? Pretty fricken’ poorly, I’d say!

But yeah just another negative effect of socialism run amok, they probably did it on purpose, you know death panels and all. Don’t know why I’m being a jerk in this post…

Dude. Yes, many people in France take extended vacations in the summer.

Well, it’s kind of more than just extended vacations. The minimum time off is 35 days, if I recall, and that’s if you only work 36 hours a week. If you work 40 hours a week, I believe that the legally mandated time off goes up to like 40 days? That’s 8 weeks, which is a pretty good chunk of time.

So from another perspective, your apparent bewilderment/disdain at French people going on vacation does itself seem fairly petty, doesn’t it?

No, not really.
Especially when you consider the context of the actual conversation.

We aren’t talking about poor single mothers here.

We’re talking about highly trained healthcare workers, in an emergency situation where thousands of people died. In those cases, you cut vacations short.
Or, more intelligently, you would have prevented all of your doctors from taking vacation AT THE SAME FREAKING TIME.

Of course, you could blame the french people for not caring about the elderly, like the French government did.

I’ll defend Timex here.

First, he’s not criticizing the French for not having AC; lots of people all over the planet live in regions where AC is not needed, including large swaths of the richest areas in America.

Second, although the tone comes off as being critical of folks taking longer vacations than he does, I’m going to go out on a limb and conclude that he wasn’t actually saying that. Instead, he was critical of a state-run health system that is vulnerable to the vacation choices of its workers. If you’re running a typical European business you can take the vacation-season into account and write off the month of August as being non-productive, that’s just good business sense. But if you’re running an emergency service you don’t get to look at the schedule and shrug off not having enough medical personnel for that period… you have to make sure it’s properly staffed with sufficient folks on stand-by to account for disasters. It’s kind of your job.

EDIT: Well crap, maybe he WAS actually shitting on people for taking “excessive” vacations. I still stand by the second part of my second point.

Nah, I wasn’t in the original post Tin. That was just a reaction to his suggestion that they just take extended vacations.
Your post there is in fact the primary point that I was making.

The length of vacations in france does seem somewhat ridiculous to me, as it did to my friend who worked in Paris for a few years… but that’s those businesses’ call. (although I guess the call is to move out of france if you don’t like it)

The issue is, as you point out, that in a state run healtcare system you can’t let a huge percentage of your healthcare workers all take vacation at the same time… which is what happens in France (or at least did back in 2003).

Or hell, you at least respond by canceling folks’ vacation and pulling them back to their jobs. An inconvenience, to be sure, but they had like 14k folks die in that heatwave.

The primary cause of the death was not vacation. It was an unprecedented natural disaster. The sick and elderly in nursing homes, believe it or not, survived. As did the majority of those that made it to hospital. Those that died were the ones that were living on their own, in their own homes. Wikipedia notes that it was a statistically improbable event that the weakest/most vulnerable survived while the stronger did not.

Yes, people were upset and there, like here, political parties blame each other for everything. I suppose there probably were a few people that died due to under-resourced staff at hospitals. But the majority of people that made it to the hospital, and actually got out of the 110-degree heat and were given a fluids IV and place to lie down, survived. The dead were in their homes. I’m not sure what exactly could have been done… should the police have kicked in the doors of every house? And what if an elderly person refused to leave? Dragged them out? Not to mention this would have to have occurred on Day 2, when those people were still alive and the magnitude of the disaster wasn’t known? Being unprecedented, how would they know when it was becoming critical, that it was the time to declare an emergency? Hindsight is 20-20.

I think it’s a valid point that New Orleans was and should have been much more prepared for a hurricane. That was a disaster that was on the books, practically a known entity even before it happened. The hurricane that landed wasn’t even that severe. Like I said, the whole vacation angle on the France Heatwave is just the easy blame route.

The primary cause of the death was not vacation.

Sorry dude, but this is pure speculation on your part.

In France, an extremely unwise practice takes place, where a very large portion of physicians all take vacation at the same time in August. This inherently weakens the healthcare infrastructure’s ability to respond to crisis.

When the event took place, the health minister of france didn’t even come back from HIS vacation to deal with it, and his aides specifically canceled emergency procedures which were already in place that would have recalled physicians.

While it’s true that a major elderly people were left alone and ended up dying at home (somewhat freakishly, as their families were on vacation), your attempt to handwave away the problems that existed with their heathcare staff is misguided. The head of their emergency healthcare workers union specifically criticized their government’s lack of action (indeed, their aggressive prevention of action).

You seem to be under some kind of mistaken impression that this is somehow a criticism of socialism, or europe, or something that is prompting you to jump to a knee-jerk defense of a policy that was largely indefensible.

I suppose there probably were a few people that died due to under-resourced staff at hospitals. But the majority of people that made it to the hospital, and actually got out of the 110-degree heat and were given a fluids IV and place to lie down, survived.

Oh, you think that a FEW of the people that died died in hospitals? Try again. 42% of the deaths associated with that heatwave occurred in hospitals.

The Assistance Publique – Hôpitaux de Paris reported more than 2600 excess emergency department visits, most of them classified as heat related, and 1900 excess hospital admissions (Fig. ​(Fig.1),1), which unfortunately coincided with a common decrease of available beds during the summer period [9]. The consequent workload sustained by nurses, physicians, and other hospital employees in emergency departments, medicine departments, and intensive care departments was huge. Indeed, 42% of deaths occurred in hospitals, while 35% and 19% of deaths occurred at home and in nursing homes, respectively.

Finally:

I think it’s a valid point that New Orleans was and should have been much more prepared for a hurricane. That was a disaster that was on the books, practically a known entity even before it happened. The hurricane that landed wasn’t even that severe. Like I said, the whole vacation angle on the France Heatwave is just the easy blame route.

What exactly is your point here? That New Orleans was totally mismanaged? That building a city below sea level in a hurricane region is stupid?
Yep. And?

scotts points are pretty much spot on.

Most of europe have between 20 and 40 days, mostly depending on service length (additional holiday for loyalty is common over here as well as Bank Holidays off) as the norm in their countries and pretty much everyone takes it, this includes people working in critical services. This always leads to issues at the top holiday times like the summer and xmas.

The point I think that’s being made is 1000 people in India is a stretch to be blaming global warming on and probably many more die every year from the heat with the major cause being poverty and overcrowding. But it is useful to blame it on trending cause like global warming, always good for clicks and headlines.

As to the New Orleans issue I think the point is maybe it should have done better knowing the issue was coming, still major incidents like these are overwhelming and don’t bring the best out of people at times.

It should also be pointed out there are various studies coming out of Eurpoe suggesting that more holiday time and less work hours per week is better overall for employee productivity.

Not an excuse for ensuring adequate resource coverage, of course.

scotts points are pretty much spot on.

What? No, they’re clearly not.

He was seemingly unaware that nearly six thousand people died IN HOSPITALS as a result of that heat wave, and that due to a lack of staff combined with the surge in demand, the workload for healthcare workers spiked significantly.

Again, while I find the mandatory vacation requirement of 35-40 days kind of comical, that’s not the problem here. That’s not what caused the problem, nor is it what I am saying caused the problem.

The problem was that a ton of healthcare workers were all taking their vacations at the same time, and it coincided with the heatwave, and then their health minister prevented the emergency procedures which were already in place from going into effect.

How is this even an argument? Having your emergency staff for critical services all take vacation at the same time? That shit is obviously a bad idea.

Ok well I didn’t know about the 42%, but I would counter that that helps my point more than hurts it. In a modern western country, virtually all people die in hospital or long term care. Probably 95%? 98%? You have suicides out of hospital, but even a high percentage of murders, car accidents, and industrial accidents are probably death in hospital. Even drownings. Heck, what percentage of combat deaths are in hospital during a war? Probably over 42%! So 42% strikes me as incredibly low. As in literally the majority died at home or outside of the reach of health care.

The question that needs to be asked, and the topic of debate, would therefore be what percentage of that 42%, could have been saved if more resources were available, e.g. they had perfect knowledge and recalled doctors based on weather forecasts, and/or were a less socialist country. Hmm.

Edit: most suicides are out of hospital, not all. Some occur in hospital, it’s a significant issue and hospitals go through a lot of effort to minimize the ability of patients to commit suicide.

Edit 2: probably being too confrontational, but it was a really unique disaster. The magnitude of the disaster wasn’t even fully appreciated until after the heat wave ended. In my opinion it was a tragedy, and now that we know it could happen, next time it can be better managed. But vacations/government intervention and inaction just doesn’t ring true to me personally as a cause or even major factor, given that at the time the information was so imperfect. When it’s really frickin hot out it probably made sense to let people stay home or actively tell them to stay indoors. A mistake, but I wouldn’t personally crucify the authority that made that call. A mistake, not a cause.

It may be a preferable and more desirable way to live, but it doesn’t enhance overall productivity. Those studies are only considering “productivity per hour” and not overall productivity, and even by that standard the US does far better than major European countries like France and Germany, and the UK is significantly below that (along with Canada): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked

But if you measure overall productivity instead of per hour productivity, the US is obviously even further ahead because of the increased number of hours worked.

Although 15-20 vacation days is pretty normal here, it’s pretty hard to take at times. 8 weeks just seems so strange - how could you give people carriage of matters if they were away that frequently? Unless you just have a job where you just show up and do it and forget about it at 5 pm. it’s hard to see how it would work except if essentially everyone took off certain times of the year, like August and Christmas, etc. and thinks essentially shut down.

Ok well I didn’t know about the 42%, but I would counter that that helps my point more than hurts it.

Except for the part where they specifically point out that the workload of the healtcare workers who were still there spiked, as is to be expected.

It wasn’t like the hospital workers on staff were just chilling out while this was taking place. The hospitals were getting absolutely SLAMMED during the crisis… as is to be expected. And the government’s response was basically non-existent.

You basically had a combination of a bad policy (allowing emergency workers to not stagger their vacation times), combined with poor response after the fact, combined with a unique crisis scenario.

We can’t just look at that last point, and then pretend like the first two didn’t happen… because then you aren’t going to improve the system’s ability to respond.

It may be a preferable and more desirable way to live, but it doesn’t enhance overall productivity. Those studies are only considering “productivity per hour” and not overall productivity, and even by that standard the US does far better than major European countries like France and Germany, and the UK is significantly below that (along with Canada): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...er_hour_worked

But if you measure overall productivity instead of per hour productivity, the US is obviously even further ahead because of the increased number of hours worked.

I think there seems to be some desire to reject the idea that the American work ethic has benefits, because hey, if it doesn’t benefit anyone to work harder, then we can all take it easy! But that’s not really the case. Working harder has positive results sometimes. So there actually is a justification for doing it, even if doing it may not be super pleasant.

But regardless, it’s all kind of moot because the issue here isn’t that France takes too much vacation.

The issue is that they had a ton of emergency support personnel all taking vacation at the same time, during a crisis.

I’ll agree with Timex to the extent that the French are known for their laissez faire outlook in general (that term, which i’ve known since childhood, is more accurately called laissez aller, according to a french friend of mine), and that covers quite a lot of how things work in France (and around the Med in general).

Then again they do have a much happier, less stress free life than a typical anglo-american, lots of love and coffee and wine and cheese etc. Not a bad life in truth (unless your caught up in the bad side of a climate change thing).

Former Shell chairman advocates fossil fuel divestment:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jun/04/former-shell-chairman-advocates-fossil-fuel-divestment

This is remarkable: European oil companies ask for a carbon price.


Their letter includes this: carbon price

“discourages high carbon options and encourages the most efficient ways of reducing emissions widely, including reduced demand for the most carbon intensive fossil fuels, greater energy efficiency, the use of natural gas in place of coal, increased investment in carbon capture and storage, renewable energy, smart buildings and grids, off-grid access to energy, cleaner cars, and new mobility business models and behaviors.”

The Big Three American fossil fuel companies of course want nothing to do with this. Shocking.

Eeeh, the important thing is productivity per hour, as long as you pay hourly wages or extra time. The more productivity per hour the more profit a company makes out of their employees. Overall productivity is a volume measure. It says little about the efficiency of a company/country, it speaks mostly about it’s economic size (ability to find work positions).

You make it work by staggering vacation time -by not taking the 8 weeks in a row- and by having redundancy in the workforce. And yes, most non-critical, non tourist driven businesses tend to shut or slow down certain months. It’s a different system, certainly, but I would argue it’s not less efficient, it just values different kinds of efficiency (for example, average hourly wages adjusted to cost of living tend to also go down the more vacation time you have, although it’s not a perfect match), because people work less and thus sacrifice money for time.

I believe the American work ethic is overall a very positive thing, but I don’t think it’s really related to hours worked. It’s more about the attitude to work when you are working (something we could learn a thing or two about). If the USA has great productivity with long working hours, and most studies point that lowering working hours (in a sensible manner) increases hourly productivity, just imagine how much more productive could the society be (plus, less unemployment).

I think that only works if you’re talking about hourly workers who don’t get paid vacation.

If you have two identical salaried workers who work equally hard in any given hour, then the one who accrues more vacation will of course be “less productive” in the final accounting because the company has to use the profits he makes in the working hours and pay for the vacation hours.

The debatable questions are whether the extra down-time will make for employees who work harder in the long term, keep employees around longer (reduce churn and training costs), etc.