I’m good with random sides- i’ll keep whoever I get.
There was a design diary where they talked about how Saxony used to be in but they excised it because exactly 7 was an odd number.
Agree. I think six is probably the way to go.
Yeah, an odd number can be tough as we saw in Founding Fathers.
Do you want to do the random selection? Seems like everyone is on board.
Sure.
Yes that’s fine
I just updated the rules post with a relatively comprehensive rules summary. I’ll post an introduction to the various powers once I have the game, and can take some pictures of the power cards.
“Recatholicization” is my new favorite word.
Listen, we can’t have people just saying mass in German willy-billy who knows what they’ll get up to next?
One would think Counter-Reformation, Contrareformatio, Catholic Reformation, etc. would be better linguistic choices with more historical color. Recatholicization sounds like something you do to calibrate your brakes. As I’ve been reading up on this game and examining materials, it seems simple and clean, but with a distinct lack of color and history. At first blush anyhow. Veering Euro, Captain!
I’ll be watching this with interest. If you need anyone to roll a random number, choose a random card or keep some information in escrow, I’m happy to help.
I will take you up on this, if you don’t mind.
Weirdly, it is actually the correct term for (re)converting an area to Catholicism. I think Counter-Reformation would refer to the movement more generally, rather than the action of converting a province. I mean, Tom may have been better off using forcible conversion, but recatholicization is not completely crazy as a choice.
I am really curious to see how the incentive structure built into the design drives the diplomacy phases. I think that is what will ultimately determine the extent to which the game is a reasonable approximation of the historical circumstances, under the constraints of the design (most notably plays in 2 hours with six players).
So I decided to go ahead and randomly assign powers via Google Sheets.
Hapsburg Coalition
Austria: @CF_Kane
Bavaria: @Ironsight
Spain: @Navaronegun
Anti-Hapsburg Coalition
France: @Cuthbert
Dutch Republic: @Kolbex
Sweden: @Panzeh
Before we get started, I’m going to a do a series of posts on the various roles in the game. I’ll start with the Hapsburg Coalition (Austria, Bavaria, and Spain). These are primarily quotes from the excellent context section of the rules (pages 5-7, available here), with a quick summary of the victory conditions tacked on the end. When my copy of the game comes, I’ll insert images of the associated power cards.
Hapsburg Coalition
Austria (@CF_Kane)
The Holy Roman Empire (for which Austria, as the Hapsburg homelands, serves as a synecdoche) has lost the war. Ferdinand III knows this, has reconciled himself to it, and he knows that he will need to make concessions. Territory for his enemies, Liberties for his allies, Tolerance for his Protestant subjects. Every concession erodes imperial authority and prestige, and threatens to reduce the Holy Roman Emperor to a powerless figurehead. This is Ferdinand’s dilemma: he needs to give away enough to make the hurting stop, without giving away too much.
Because the Austrian position represents not only its own interests, but that of an empire, they must also concern themselves with the fate of Bavaria (one of their subjects) and Spain (the other branch of the Hapsburg family). The Austrian player has something that everyone fighting in the Holy Roman Empire wants: territory. Because of this, they can to some degree afford to be generous and to aggressively facilitate deal-making on behalf of their allies.
Austria is at war with France and Sweden. They must assure victory conditions are met for Bavaria and Spain. They are unlikely to interact much with The Dutch Republic, though the Dutch have some interest in Tolerance and the Austrians probably wouldn’t mind some Commerce.
Austria’s victory conditions are determined by their goal card, which is drawn at the beginning of the game, and has certain thresholds they have to meet, including amount of Debt, Territory in the Holy Roman Empire, and Authoritarianism (the sum of the Tolerance and Liberties tracks). In addition, Austria’s allies Bavaria and Spain must fulfill their victory conditions for Austria to win.
Bavaria (@Ironsight)
Bavaria’s Elector, Duke Maximilian I, was a militantly Catholic and fiercely independent autocrat. In the early stages of the war, his men did most of the fighting on Austria’s behalf—for which Austria promised to reward him handsomely. Decades later, the bill has now come due, and Bavaria expects territory and a larger degree of autonomy within the framework of the Empire. Though they are committed to the punishment of heretics and forced conversion back to the one true faith, Bavaria is primarily concerned with its own power and prestige rather than that of the Empire as a whole and Austria in particular. In fact, in 1631, they were more than willing to let Austria hang out to dry when they signed what proved to be a short-lived secret treaty with France.
Bavaria is particularly adept at raising troops. This not only helps them to field a strong army, but gives them leverage with friends and enemies alike who might be looking to fill out their ranks. Their territorial acquisitions are more likely to be permanent, and they are eager to expand their power at the expense of their Hapsburg allies.
Bavaria is at war with France and Sweden, though how vigorously they want to pursue that is up to them. Their most likely source of territory is Austria, who needs them to win. They are unlikely to interact as much with Spain or The Dutch Republic, though both of those Powers are likely to need troops, and both have something (Prestige and Commerce, respectively) that Bavaria wants.
Bavaria is the only power that can forcibly convert territory. If they occupy all points of territory in Protestant area of the Empire at the start of their military turn, they may place a “Recatholicization” marker, which makes that Area count as Catholic for the rest of the game. This ability is important to Bavaria, as only Catholic territory that they control counts towards their victory conditions.
For Bavaria to win, the Liberties track must be higher than the Tolerance track, and their final debt must be less than the sum of their Claims (in Catholic areas) plus the Liberties track.
Spain (@Navaronegun)
Spain has been secretly teetering on the brink of economic collapse for decades, subsisting on larger and larger loans from bankers who have no idea how bad it is. Spain’s total annual income is not even sufficient to pay the interest on these loans, let alone the principle. And now they’re fighting two wars, which is three more than they can afford. This whole house of cards is built on Spain’s reputation and prestige, and the one thing that keeps Philip IV up at night isn’t fear that the Spanish will lose these wars—they knew they had lost the Eighty Years War about forty years in!—but that the resulting humiliation would shatter the myth of Spanish prestige, and with it, their access to credit.
Spain has a lot of something that nobody wants: Debt. They also have a lot of something that everyone wants: Prestige, but the more they give that up, the more tenuous their own position becomes. The Spanish position is one of desperation; they are drowning in debt, hemorrhaging troops, and are fighting two enemies without an ally to take the pressure off. Spain has an incentive to make an early peace with the Dutch in order to stabilize this situation.
Spain is at war with France and The Dutch Republic. Their cousins in Austria depend on Spain achieving victory, and might help them move around some of their Debts. Their interactions with Sweden and Bavaria will be more limited, though both of those Powers are likely to want Prestige and may even give up troops or take on debt to get it.
For Spain to win, they must have less than 25 debt after the Debt Resolution phase at the end of the game.
Next we’ll consider the anti-Hapsburg Coalition (France, Sweden, and The Dutch Republic). Again, these are primarily quotes from the excellent context section of the rules (pages 5-7, with a quick summary of the victory conditions tacked on the end. Images to come when I get my copy of the game.
Anti-Hapsburg Coalition
France (@Cuthbert)
France was ruled by Louis XIII when it got involved in the Thirty Years War, but it was Cardinal Richelieu who was calling the shots. Wishing to fatally weaken Hapsburg power in Spain and the Holy Roman Empire, and thus leave France the major power in Europe, his red eminence pursued alliances with Protestant heretics against their fellow Catholics. Richelieu died in late 1642, followed by the king five months later, but their policies were pursued by Richelieu’s successor Cardinal Mazarin, who had the full support of the four year old Louis XIV’s mother and regent, Anne of Austria (of the Spanish Hapsburg line).
France is playing a dangerous and expensive game, largely striking at her enemies through proxies, and furthering her own goals by furthering those of her Protestant allies. Play this game well and the French player will cripple the Hapsburg and ensure French ascendency; play it poorly and France will find itself overextended without much to show for it. France is perhaps the most difficult of the six Powers to play, and requires subtlety and deftness.
France is at war with Austria, Bavaria, and Spain. In order to win, France must have less than 20 debt at the end of the Debt Resolution phase at the end of the game, and must ensure victory conditions are met for Sweden and The Dutch Republic.
Sweden (@Panzeh)
Sweden’s entry into the war was a whirlwind of successes and conquests, fueled by Protestant zeal and the military adventurism of its dynamic and popular King Gustavus Adelphi’s the Great. His death on the battlefield a couple years in brought the whole grand adventure to a screeching and demoralizing halt. Six-year-old Christina ascended to the throne, with real power exercised by a regency council headed by Chancellor Axel Oxenstierna. Seeking to ratify Sweden’s early conquests as compensation for their losses, Oxenstierna kept the Swedish army in Germany for another sixteen years, plunging them into deep arrears. By the end of the war, Sweden could not afford to pay off and demobilize their army without financial compensation in addition to territorial gains.
If the Swedish player is more militantly inclined, they might find it easier to take new territories than ask for them. But without French assistance, Sweden can find itself pummeled by a one-two punch of Austria and Bavaria, and so might pursue a more reconciliatory note, perhaps tradition positioning on the Liberties/Tolerance track in exchange for territory, or vice-versa.
Sweden is at war with Austria and Bavaria. France needs Sweden to achieve victory in order to win themselves. Sweden’s dealings with Spain and The Dutch Republic will be more limited, though Sweden might agree to concessions toward Spain’s cousins in Austria in exchange for Prestige, and shares a vested interest in the Tolerance track with their fellow Protestants in the Dutch Republic.
In order for Sweden to win, the sum of the Tolerance track and Sweden’s claims (in Protestant Areas) must exceed Sweden’s debt.
The Dutch Republic (@Kolbex)
The Dutch Republic won their independence half-way through the Eighty Years War, yet they’re still fighting the Spanish, these days largely out of deference to their French allies, who insisted on a combined settlement with Spain. But the Dutch are merchants, not soldiers; war is expensive and they want to get back to making money. Negotiations for a separate peace (spurred in part by worries that the French would double-cross them by agreeing to a separate peace with Spain themselves) began in 1646 under the rule of Frederick Henry, Prince of Orange. He would die a year before the resulting 1648 Peace of Munster was concluded. This didn’t exactly allow them to get back to business as usual—they would remain at war with Portugal for another fifteen years, and would get into it with Cromwell’s England four years later—but it did mark the dawn of an era of prosperity and expansion that is commonly known as the Dutch Golden Age.
The Dutch Republic’s primary bargaining chip—and it’s a doozy—is the Commerce that their ships bring into the game. Concluding an early peace with Spain greatly increases these opportunities, but eases up the pressure on the Dutch player’s sole adversary. But money does have a way of turning enemies into friends…
The Dutch Republic is at war with Spain, though this can change during the game. France needs the Dutch to win in order to win themselves. Dealings with the other Powers will generally by limited but you’d be surprised what you can get in exchange for a Commerce Card.
In order to win, the sum of the lowest numbered Commerce Card the Dutch has given to each player (their Trade Agreements) must exceed their debts.
Welp, that’s not good :p
Nah, you are the soul of subtlety and deftness on the forum. You’ll do fine!
Your brother in royalty,
Ferdinand III, by the grace of God elected Holy Roman Emperor, forever August, King of Germany, King of Hungary, Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Rama, Serbia, Galicia, Lodomeria, Cumania and Bulgaria, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Burgundy, Brabant, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Margrave of Moravia, Duke of Luxemburg, of the Higher and Lower Silesia, of Württemberg and Teck, Prince of Swabia, Count of Habsburg, Tyrol, Kyburg and Goritia, Marquess of the Holy Roman Empire, Burgovia, the Higher and Lower Lusace, Lord of the Marquisate of Slavonia, of Port Naon and Salines, etc. etc.
Do people have an opinion on having all negotiations be in thread vs secret?
Oh, neat! I’ll try to remember to check in here once in a while and see what’s going on.
The negotiations are intended to be public - the only thing that’s hidden are Austria’s goals.
I’m not sure how that will work in a play-by-forum game, though, because so much of it is about the table talk, offers and counter-offers, etc.
Re: questions of its euroness, it’s probably leaning more euro-y than pure wargamey, though I can’t imagine your typical eurogamer would be down for the fighty-fighty smashy-smashy stuff, or the dice.
Welcome to the forums Tom. This will be the first play of your game for all of us so your insights and comments will be most welcome.
I think the way we played Founding Fathers would work here. Any agreements/actions that are in bold are considered as enforceable but players should be allowed to negotiate in private.