What Non-Liberals Dislike About Liberalism (restored)

Yes, this is exactly what I see, and when people make false statements about liberalism, it’s a mistake to let them go unchallenged. If we don’t understand that after Reagan and Gingrich and Fox News and their ilk, we haven’t learned anything at all.

Sorry, Teiman, but there’s more to that story:

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/306726/Ran-Movie-Clip-Three-Arrows.html

Do you have specific examples of rights that liberals attack? I’ll assume 2nd amendment is one. And from your other points, I’d guess you’ll say 1st amendment. Any others?

I see this argument come up often on free speech forums: that liberals are especially injurious to free speech. I tend to think it’s been because people like Conor Friedersdorf and Ken White have–over the last few years–focused pretty heavily on campus protests and no-platforming and not on things like this or this or this kind of no-platforming. That said, I don’t know even of any college protests that want to make it illegal to say bad things; they’re trying to prevent speakers they don’t like from speaking on their campuses, not get them jailed. Maybe I’m wrong and you can point out counterexamples to me. It’s true that some liberals support hate crime legislation, and I will join in your criticism of that. Are there other specific areas where you think liberals are failing to protect free speech? Can you provide examples in support?

Would you say the ACLU is a liberal organization?

There are no liberal elites that advocate this and very few liberal rank-and-file. At the most, American liberals want a European-style democratic socialism, which has been tried several times and appears to work pretty well. I just don’t think it’s valid to criticize an ideology for something very few of its members subscribe to. If you can show me statistics–an example of the kind of thing I’m looking for: more than half of Republicans deny evolution, but less than 1/3 of Democrats and independents do–I’m more willing to entertain this criticism.

The idea that liberals want big intrusive government while conservatives don’t is simply not true. Government has not only grown under every conservative President since Reagan, it has grown more under conservatives than under liberals. Similarly, it’s not the case that liberals want powerful and intrusive government while conservatives don’t - conservatives just want government to be powerful and intrusive in different areas than do liberals. The liberal idea of government power is e.g. the power to regulate business to prevent it from fouling the environment or exploiting workers. The conservative idea of government power is e.g. the power to seize the property of suspected criminals who have not been convicted and often haven’t even been charged.

Lets have Governement Parent Figure control what we can see or not.

I think the idea that any modern politician really wants to reduce government is crazy. Mainly because the only way any of them want to reduce government is by reducing services to the poor, which is crazy.

The GOP long ago gave up being the party of smaller government and deficits.

That’s really more a conservative position.

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what the fuck is wrong with me?, I am always a hater, meh.

So you and Scottagibson actually agree on something.

This thread has gone way off the rails of my intent as expressed in the opening post. Specifically and I’m going to criticize my own side here, way too many liberals berating conservatives for attempting to express their views. I’ve slipped on this myself, but overall this thread has gone way too damn far.

So, please tone that down. I’m not going to repeat myself; if you have questions read the OP.

If this persists I am going to re-name this thread something like P&R Posters Who Can’t Control Themselves and move it to Everything Else.

I’m happy to let people make legitimate grievances about liberals and liberal positions. On the other hand, I won’t use that as a reason to let people offer stupid straw man versions of liberal views, or otherwise engage in misrepresentation. Maybe you should make that clear.

for a start - could we separate out liberal / conservative vs left/right vs democrat/republican?

These aren’t the same things and it feels like we have some people discussing high-level ideology while others are discussing current american politics.

You forgot to mention about them making “bad faith” arguments. :)

Maybe I is learning.

Yes this is I think one of the primary confusions.
That, along with using this disagreement on definitions to make arguments about sides that are non reflective of any recognizable position.

Throw in the additional mixing when you realize that liberal and conservative have very different meanings on different sides of the Atlantic.

The economy of Star Trek is based on free energy. When energy is free, and you can use a replicator to create anything you need, what purpose does money serve?

How are we supposed to keep score smarty pants?

How do you think this guy feels?

Can the replicator create me a front-row seat at the playoffs, a stretch of bar at the hot new club, or an original Picasso?

Post-scarcity economies are weird, but I find it hard to believe that even infinite free energy and super-human AI will mean that nothing at all is scarce. Maybe in a world with perfect desire-modification technology.

Imagine pro sports with no salary cap, and you wouldn’t need to run a tab at the bar. As for Picasso, that Glytko guy on planet Zoron is a much better artist.