What should have israel done instead?

Jag · 2011-09-01T13:59:54.000Z

Report Finds Naval Blockade by Israel Legal but Faults Raid

UNITED NATIONS — A United Nations review has found that Israel’s naval blockade of Gaza is legal and appropriate but that the way its forces boarded a Turkish-based flotilla trying to break that blockade 15 months ago, killing nine passengers, was excessive and unreasonable.

The report, expected to be released on Friday, also found that when Israeli commandos boarded the main ship they faced “organized and violent resistance from a group of passengers” and were therefore required to use force for their own protection. But the report called the force “excessive and unreasonable,” saying the loss of life was unacceptable and the Israeli military’s later treatment of passengers was abusive.

Turkey is particularly upset by the conclusion that Israel’s naval blockade is in keeping with international law and that its forces have the right to stop Gaza-bound ships in international waters, which is what happened here. That conclusion oversteps the mandate of the four-member panel appointed by the United Nations secretary general and is at odds with other United Nations decisions, Turkey argued.

Wow. Very surprised. I thought for sure Israel was going to get hammered in this report.

Let the conspiracies begin!

Linoleum · 2011-09-01T14:01:48.000Z

From now on whenever I see this thread title I’m going to be mentally substituting “israel” with “tom chick”

Jason_McCullough · 2011-09-01T14:04:42.000Z

Hahahahha

Kalle · 2011-09-01T14:05:43.000Z

I’ve missed this thread.

inactive_user · 2011-09-01T16:20:55.000Z

Linoleum:

From now on whenever I see this thread title I’m going to be mentally substituting “israel” with “tom chick”

oh god that would be the worst thread in history

thrasymedes · 2011-09-02T04:02:16.000Z

Jag:

Wow. Very surprised. I thought for sure Israel was going to get hammered in this report.

Let the conspiracies begin!

It’s politics; if the report says that Israel were 100% in the wrong, people will use it to bash the UN as anti-Israel. So they try to come down on both sides of the fence and thereby show that they’re really actually even-handed.

Or maybe the blockade really is legal, and enforcing it in international waters is also legal.

Kalle · 2011-09-02T09:36:14.000Z

Turkey expels the Israeli ambassador.

The publication of the UN report of the Ship to Gaza killings was apparantly a Turkish-set deadline for Israel to issue a formal apology to the Turkish government for the events that lead to the deaths of nine Turkish citizens. Since Israel could not or would not do so the Turkish government is now downgrading diplomatic relations and halting all military cooperation between the two countries.

Lunch_of_Kong · 2011-09-02T11:03:31.000Z

Dear Netanyahu: http://www.perfectapology.com/how-to-say-im-sorry.html

Lum · 2011-09-02T11:47:14.000Z

Avigdor Lieberman apologizing is about as likely as Michelle Bachmann being nice to a gay person.

Kalle · 2011-09-08T12:45:35.000Z

I’m not a fan of Israel’s policies by a longshot but when Turkey pledges that any future convoys to Gaza will be escorted by the Turkish navy then that’s just begging for a violent confrontation. Turkey is deliberately escalating the conflict now.

Meanwhile the Palestinians are moving forward withtheir bid for recognition of statehood by the UN.

extarbags · 2011-09-08T12:55:23.000Z

Kalle:

I’m not a fan of Israel’s policies by a longshot but when Turkey pledges that any future convoys to Gaza will be escorted by the Turkish navy then that’s just begging for a violent confrontation. Turkey is deliberately escalating the conflict now.

I dunno, that seems pretty reasonable to me. They’ve already found out the hard way what happens when they don’t do this.

Jason_Townsend · 2011-09-08T13:04:00.000Z

Yeah. I can’t stand the governing parties in Israel, I hate where its politics have been going for years, and at least at the time of that confrontation the terms of the blockade were very unreasonable in many of the things that were blacklisted.

But this is, I presume, grandstanding on the part of Erdogan and an intentional policy of hostility, cynically dressed up with an appeal to normalization if Israel will just apologize for being so evil.

extarbags:

I dunno, that seems pretty reasonable to me. They’ve already found out the hard way what happens when they don’t do this.

So they have an obligation to militarily back up civilian confrontations with the Israeli military? If Turkish policy is that the Gaza blockade is illegal and has to be broken, then there are more straightforward ways to do it than to “escort” a ferry full of guys with lead pipes.

extarbags · 2011-09-08T13:15:46.000Z

Um, a Turkish civilian ship was boarded by the Israeli military, who subsequently murdered nine people. Turkey’s response? “Eh, it’s ok as long as you say you’re sorry.” And yet, here we are. I don’t think Turkey is the one that’s grandstanding here.

Jason_Townsend · 2011-09-08T13:33:00.000Z

The Marmara incident I read about was a bit more involved than that. I certainly understand people feeling that the blockade was illegitimate, that the ship contained both violent and non-violent activists, and that Israeli military actions should have been able to prevent a loss of life.

Reducing it to a bit of casual Sunday piracy and murder by The Bad Guys is to my mind no better than some Jerusalem Post columnist reducing it to a bunch of filibusters who got what was coming. If Turkey’s government disagrees with the blockade that’s a normal, defensible point of view that can be followed up with wiser policy.

Kalle · 2011-09-08T13:57:21.000Z

I would say that the Turkish government has a legitimate grievance with Israel over the Marmara incident but to use it as an excuse for military posturing is not going to resolve anything and will, if anything, paint Israel as the sympathetic party in a conflict where Turkey had previously held the moral highground.

Brettmcd · 2011-09-08T13:58:11.000Z

Didn’t the UN say the blockade was legal? If that is so I can’t see how the Turkish navy trying to break it with a military escort will turn out at all well.

AlanQ · 2011-09-08T14:32:11.000Z

I imagine that the Turkish escort would only go to the edge of Israeli territory. There is nothing particularly unusual or objectionable about a country escorting it’s own civilian ships through international waters.

Brettmcd · 2011-09-08T14:41:51.000Z

AlexB:

I imagine that the Turkish escort would only go to the edge of Israeli territory. There is nothing particularly unusual or objectionable about a country escorting it’s own civilian ships through international waters.

It sounds more to me like they want to break the blockade, which would be a very bad thing if they try that.

Dawn_Falcon · 2011-09-08T15:05:34.000Z

Removed because of legal threats by Lum the Mad.

AlanQ · 2011-09-08T15:11:32.000Z

Do either you (Dawn Falcon) or BrettMcD have any evidence whatsoever that the Turkish government is planning a war with Israel? Because that would be very surprising to me. I sincerely doubt that the Turkish government has any intention of getting into a “shooting” incident" with the Israelis, and I would need something more than bare assertion before I came to that conclusion.