I didn’t say annexation was a good thing, just that it’s a lot less bad than what Israel is doing in the West Bank and Gaza. As Ed rightly points out, Israel annexed East Jerusalem. The Palestinians there were offered Israeli citizenship. While there are still problems with the situation in East Jerusalem, at least they have all the rights and freedoms of every other Israeli. When I took the bus from Jordan to East Jerusalem it was full of free speaking, free moving Arab-Israelis who didn’t live under a military occupation they had no say in. They could vote in Israeli elections, and go visit the Israeli government and complain about their situation. Palestinians just have to suffer. They live in streets watched over by snipers from a hostile army that puts the heads of children in their sights and posts photos of that on the Internet.
Good old Dawn Falcon. Frothing at the mouth and flinging random nonsensical personal attacks because people don’t 110% agree with him.
Yeah, and when is he finally going to explain why reusable grocery backs are worse for the environment than disposable plastic bags?
I think he may just hate sea turtles.
To be fair, the Starlight incarnation has generally been less trollish and more interesting to debate. I honestly think he took at look at the forums, took a deep breath, and decided he wanted to be a “good faith” contributor. Hence the jettisoning of the previous handle and a fresh start. If he sometimes falls back into the same ad hominem debating techniques, it seems to be coming from honestly held convictions rather than a desire to spout off a cheap troll.
That said, I’m still on the fence with the standard “Keep on [supporting X] by [reductio ad absurdum]!” line. It’s used often enough to be an eye-roll-worthy trope, but not so frequently that it has become an endearing part of his persona. It’s in a nether-realm between annoying and amusing.
Yes - and go look up the fuss annexing East Jerusalem has caused - it’s been rejected, basically. Moreover, a one-state solution wouldn’t work for anyone without it being a day-1 totalitarian state to deal with the real security issues, and that’s not a good concept is it? The answer is a two state solution, and it’s one which is going to require substantial demolition of the settlements. I’m far, far from blind to what’s happening, and I’m fully aware who assassinated Rabin זיכרונו לברכה (of blessed memory). I, like many others here, still light a candle for him every year.
That soldiers in a conflict thing will do inappropriate things is a given. The soldier is being punished, as appropriate. Making this into an anti-Israel Crusade only empowers the Israeli Right.
(Thanks for debating rationally rather than resorting to Galloway-like arguments, though)
Whoa. A cogent response, with no random non-sequitur links! Maybe you are correct Tin.
I know, it’s kind of scary. Completely tenable and understandable.
marxeil
3168
No, his point is that the fixation on Palestinians being oppressed while mostly showing lack of interest in any other wrong doing is suspect.
How exactly does that work? Does Israel get a free pass until the entire world is full of sweetness and light?
The argument is that if you appear to be more focused on Israel than other nations, that makes what you say less valid. That means an author who only writes about the crimes of Nazi Germany, but has never written anything about the Japanese, can be regarded as “suspect” and safely ignored. I don’t agree with that, but that’s the logic behind that thinking.
Pogo
3171
You’re trying to explain the logic behind Dawn Falcon’s thinking?
Exactly. Especially when excuses are made for i.e. China.
But nobody has made any excuses for China, just simply pointed out how it’s completely different. I’ve even said that if Israel annexed Palestine like China has annexed Tibet, giving them equal rights, it would be a much, much better situation than it is now. Do you really think a Palestinian would rather not be treated like a Tibetan, free to move where he wants, free to work where he likes, free to study wherever he wants, full citizenship rights, equality with other citizens? You really think that Tibetans are much worse off than Palestinians?
If you do, your blinkers must be set to blindfold.
Talking about China is begging the question though. What China does does not change the rightness or wrongness of Israel’s actions. Unless you are really in to moral relativity, the Israeli occupation should be judged in isolation.
Personally I think that a major component in the perpetuation of the conflict is that the Palestinians are fenced in a corner and have very little to lose. Give them something to lose, a taste of prosperity, self-determination etc. and I think they will come to the same conclusion the other Arab states arrived at one by one; that it’s better to co-exist with Israel than fight it. It may take another few decades of course.
marxeil
3175
Well not really. Of all these arguments against Israeli policy in the West bank are totally legitimate and I actually agree with them.
I’m just wondering about the obsessive need to beat that specific horse when there are others just as alive running about who seem to garner little to no interest.
I think a lot of the Israel focus is 1) they get a ton of diplomatic and cash support from the US and 2) theoretically, they might actually listen. They’re mostly a western democracy and have lots of strong ties to the US and Europe, unlike all the other evils.
Another thing is that when someone on a forum like this says “the situation in Tibet sucks!” everyone agrees and there is nobody who argues otherwise or claims special circumstances. If we had more pro-Chinese people around the whole discussion could get really heated very quickly. I’d love to learn more, and have a discussion, about Tibet. But I bet if I started one there would be little to discuss because we’d all pretty much in agreement.
I believe there was a thread here a couple years back about Tibet and there was actually a fair amount of discussion about how the average Tibetan is better off today under Chinese rule than they were under their old monarchy, how the things might possibly go downhill if the Dali Lama’s goals were realized, etc. It was certainly a “lesser of two evils” discussion, but it was fascinating and not without spirited discussion from both sides.
Maybe I’m thinking of another Board, but I’m pretty sure it was here.
Don’t beat a prisoner in custody to death, especially if you don’t let his ethnic group vote?
Death Spurs West Bank Unrest
http://on.wsj.com/WaPW8J
So, you’re claiming that Israeli Citizens who are Arabs can’t vote now. Right, well, have fun with the screaming and leaping.
