Like I said twice before, I don’t think that needing a Jewish state justifies the occupation of the west bank. The Palestinians must to accept Israel’s existence. Whether its Jewish or not is none of their business.
Ah, but my belief in the two-state solution comes from my Zionism, not in spite of it (how can I deny a homeland for the Palestinians without denying a homeland for the Jews?). The only significant area I differ from the moderate left-wing view is on the Golani, and Syria’s ongoing meltdown I believe justifies my stance there.
(Actually, the Israeli government was discussing returning the Golani for a binding peace deal, but that’s been overtaken by events)
I feel that the Jewish people should be able live in the established secular democracies which support freedom of religion and culture, without fear and in peace, thus nullifying the need for a “safe” homeland (safe in quotes because it’s not safe at all and will not likely be anytime soon).
In fact, most Jews already do this.
Also ethno-states are detestable in any form. Thank god we are growing out of them as a species.
No, the largest amount of Jews live in America.
The thing is that they do accept Israel’s right to exist, but refuse to accept Israel as a Jewish state. And that leads people like Starlight to claim they don’t accept Israel’s right to exist, because some people seem to conflate those two concepts.
Gav
3227
Arguably, people would have said the same thing in 1930. We’re not exactly talking ancient history here – my wife’s grandfather was on a ship that was turned away from the US and sent back to a concentration camp.
In 1930… about Germany??? Are you going to compare 1930s Germany to modern 1st world democracies???
I think the fear is reasonable. Even Germany went through a period of emancipated enlightenment for Jews before falling back into old anti-Semitic ways when times were not so good. Although America has never had any significant anti-Semitic events it’s still a young country. With Jewish history I wouldn’t entirely trust life to be safe there forever either. Then again, life in Israel is probably less safe than anywhere right now, but better to be in charge of your own destiny than not I suppose.
We clearly have different standards for what is reasonable. It is infinitely more likely that Israel would be overrun and destroyed than the Jewish populations of, let’s say, USA and Canada become repressed and disenfranchised… and the former event is not very likely at all.
I think we’d all have very different standards for what is “reasonable” fear if we had family that had experienced the Holocaust.
If I had a relative or friend who died in a plane crash, would it be reasonable for me to never fly again?
What is reasonable to individuals varies wildly. What is reasonable for public policy or foreign affairs should be much more grounded in reality.
I hesitate to get into this pissing match, but it seems to have calmed down a bit. I’m personally extremely unhappy with how Palestinians are treated in Israel. Unfortunately, I think the cycle of violence (physical and otherwise) has been ramped up for too long on both sides for there to be an easy path to peace when the political realities and basic human nature are taken into account.
Soapyfrog is right, of course. Now if six million relatives or friends died in plane crashes, I suspect the outlook could be understandably different. You look for signs that the next airplane you’re thinking of flying on may be in poor shape for you to fly on, because one can never tell when it’s going to go down until it does. Creaks in the wings, odd ticks in the engine. You understand that flying may be faster and more efficient, and sure planes have been built to better specifications in the last several decades, but you’re still going to be highly suspect with that kind of history. I sure as heck wouldn’t fly on a plane if nearly every family I knew had someone (if not multiple someones) who died on one. Not when there are other means of transportation available to me. That’s because that history would be a real part of my reality.
Jag
3234
Except the Airplane = Holocaust analogy is stupid (and idiotic). One is an accident the other was the intentional and systematic elimination of an entire race/religion.
What’s even more mind boggling is that the Holocaust may have been even bigger than previously thought.
The documented camps include not only “killing centers” but also thousands of forced labor camps, where prisoners manufactured war supplies; prisoner-of-war camps; sites euphemistically named “care” centers, where pregnant women were forced to have abortions or their babies were killed after birth; and brothels, where women were coerced into having sex with German military personnel.
Aceris
3235
The world’s biggest open prison is North Korea.
Aceris
3236
I think the truth is far more that Fatah needs to avoid recognising Israel’s right to exist in order to appease its own supporters, but realises that to actively deny Israel’s right to exist would endanger any negotiations with the Israelis. They therefore maintain a position that is ambiguous in the extreme.
This idea that they are opposing Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state seems a bit ridiculous, since noone questions the idea that Palestine, once established, should be an islamic state, alongside the many other islamic states in the world.
In short, the Palestinians would regard the refusal of the recognition of Palestine’s right to exist as an Islamic state tantamount to the refusal of Palestine’s right to exist, therefore to pretend that refusing Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state does not constitute a refusal of Israel’s right to exist is anti-semitic.
I knew someone would deliberately miss the point. It’s nothing to do with the seriousness of the event and everything to do with the rationality of decision making in the wake of said event. 9/11 happened, so I’ll never fly or go in a skyscraper again!
Creation of a Jewish state certainly made sense in the 40s (and was rooted at least in part by the developed countries’ continuing anti-semitism despite the holocaust), and in reality it did allow many people to escape poor living conditions, but it’s clear that at this point it’s caused more problems than it’s solved. There are better and safer places to live. Israel is not protecting the Jewish people except perhaps by being a giant lightning rod.
Jag
3238
I suspect the citizens of Israel would disagree with you. Ethnic cleansing is still happening in our ‘modern society’. Something tells me all the Jews wouldn’t have ended up in Norway eating lutefisk.
What a remarkably ignorant comment.
Polls suggest that the majority of Palestinians are prepared to accept a peace treaty that returns Palestine to its 1967 borders. They don’t deny Israel’s right to exist, because there’s no need to, because there’s no pressure on them to do so. Maybe you are getting mixed up with Hamas, the extreme end of Palestinian politics? Even they removed the issue of Israel’s existence from their political mandate for election, presumably because it made them look too extreme to the average Palestinian who just wants his rights to exist as a normal person. Hamas won the election on the mandate of self-help (because nobody else will) and being corruption free (because Fatah were perceived as being on the take). They didn’t win on a mandate of “destroy Israel”.
This idea that they are opposing Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state seems a bit ridiculous, since noone questions the idea that Palestine, once established, should be an islamic state, alongside the many other islamic states in the world.
I think the large number of Christian Palestinians would not be at all happy at Palestine being declared an Islamic state. And what are the other Islamic states in the world? Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan (de facto because they didn’t change after the Taliban) and Saudi Arabia (unofficially)? Not exactly states that Israel would want to be compared with. There’s also a difference between a state which grounds its laws on religious teaching, and a country which is constitutionally for one specific group of people.
In short, the Palestinians would regard the refusal of the recognition of Palestine’s right to exist as an Islamic state tantamount to the refusal of Palestine’s right to exist, therefore to pretend that refusing Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state does not constitute a refusal of Israel’s right to exist is anti-semitic.
If America said to Cuba “we accept your right to exist but we don’t like the fact that you are a Communist state rather than a democracy and refuse to sign any deals with you that insists we recognize you as a Communist country” then are you saying that the US is actually denying Cuba’s right to exist?
