Right. Did you read anything of what I’ve written?
Panzeh
3283
I read your post and I didn’t see anything that contradicts what I wrote.
They can’t even get basic needs across, and Israel is unlawfully occupying a ton of their land in and out of Gaza. That you struggle with understanding basic human needs isn’t their fault. They got nothing else to do than to chuck rockets at Israel, and those primitive things are barely a threat
I was concurring with someone else, the tar is what you dumped onto your own head. And you’re sick and tired of democracy, I know.
marxeil
3286
I’ll explain again. Their borders are are closed because they shoot rockets. If Hamas took the opportunity it was given in 95 to start building Gaza instead of waging an ideological war at the expense of the people of Gaza, they wouldn’t be barricaded as they are today. The blockade exists to stop Hamas from importing even more rockets and other armaments into the strip.
What ‘ton of land’ is that? Where is it?
What would happen in each scenario if:
a) Israel unilaterally completely disarmed and adopted a pacifist stance
b) Hamas unilaterally completely disarmed and adopted a pacifist stance
Israel does shitty things that should be rightly condemned, but they do not pose an existential threat to the Palestinians in the same way that Hamas poses an existential threat to Israel and Jewish people in general. I think Marxeil is correct, Israel has attempted to disengage from Gaza as best it can without completely abandoning security concerns, and the current state of siege in Gaza is a direct result of Hamas repeatedly attacking Israel on the slenderest of pretexts.
This current conflict was completely engineered by Hamas. Israel may well be overreacting, but in doing so I don’t think they are going beyond what the US itself would do given similar circumstances.
Panzeh
3288
The barricade doesn’t just block rockets and armaments, it blocks everything that could conceivably be used to build the place. BTW, the pull-out was in 2005. The barricade is designed to inhibit Gaza’s independence. If Israel were strictly concerned with the import of weapons, why are they so dead-set against an international or even American force to police the borders of Gaza? One the hold-ups in peace talks earlier, is that Netenyahu demands that the IDF control the Palestinian borders, and absolutely refuses any other solution, even their so-called ‘trusted ally’, the Americans manning them.
Israel does shitty things that should be rightly condemned, but they do not pose an existential threat to the Palestinians in the same way that Hamas poses an existential threat to Israel and Jewish people in general. I think Marxeil is correct, Israel has attempted to disengage from Gaza as best it can without completely abandoning security concerns, and the current state of siege in Gaza is a direct result of Hamas repeatedly attacking Israel on the slenderest of pretexts.
Even a fully independent Palestinian state with a large armed force poses no existential threat to the state of Israel. If they could fight Syria, Jordan, and Egypt and win, they could easily fight off a pip-squeak Palestinian state. I don’t think anyone is calling for the IDF to disarm.
If Hamas became pacifistic, I believe that the Israelis wouldn’t even bother negotiating any more. They’d give the settlers every bit of land they wanted, and maybe, just maybe, they’ll make a bantustan, so that they never have to give the Palestinians Israeli citizenship. It’ll be independent only in name, its borders will be controlled by the IDF.
Also, if you looked at the platform of Likud or Jewish Home, two of the most important parties in the ruling coalition, I could conceive these as against the existence of a Palestinian state.
That’s simply ignorant of the geography of the area. And modern weaponry.
A peaceful movement for peace among the Palestinians would have mass support both inside Israel and across the world. There is strong opposition even now to the settlers from groups like Peace Now.
It would be strange for a country to hand over the policing of it’s border to another power or group of powers. What state would allow that?
I don’t think anyone is calling for the IDF to disarm.
Because if they did there would be a genocide.
If Hamas became pacifistic, I believe that the Israelis wouldn’t even bother negotiating any more.
Astonishing that you or anyone believes this. There could be an internationally recognized Palestinian state with sovereign borders RIGHT NOW were it not for Hamas.
Panzeh
3291
I know the geography of the area, the IDF has fought successfully there before, why would they not be able to now?
I have my doubts about that. I don’t think the Israeli left has been effective as an advocate for the Palestinians, and globally, only the US population’s opinion matters, and they care not a whit for how peaceful someone is.
The PA never asked for an international force to police the Israeli borders with other states, but for an international force to police the Palestinian border with other Arab states.
Astonishing that you or anyone believes this. There could be an internationally recognized Palestinian state with sovereign borders RIGHT NOW were it not for Hamas.
If you’ve read anything about negotiations between Israel and the PA, they wouldn’t have sovereign borders(this is one of the biggest sticking points), and honestly, Bibi’s behavior is that of someone negotiation mostly to bide time. He’ll make promises, and then say his massively right-wing coalition won’t allow for it, so he has to go back on them.
You seem to have this idea that the Israeli government is a good-faith negotiator, and seeing their behavior, that’s astonishing.
They are no longer a threat, but as little as five years back they were every bit as much a threat as a V2 rocket lobbed from France would have been to a Londoner. [a Syrian-made M302 has about a third of the explosive force of a V2, but Hamas has launched more explosive power at Israel in the last month than Germany did at London in a year.]
The “letting humanitarian supplies through” thing is probably a bit of a sore spot for the Israelis – one of the things that they allowed passage of into Gaza was concrete, since the PA made the point that the folks in Gaza needed homes and schools and hospitals… all of which needed concrete to build. But apparently a very large percentage (maybe even most) of the building materials that were allowed into Gaza were immediately funneled into construction of the tunnels that are now being used to attack the Israelis. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
They negotiate more honestly than the Palestinians ever have. Hamas even now would negotiate only because they are under enormous military pressure, and only to get the breathing room they need to build up to once again attack Israel. It’s their mission statement to destroy Israel.
What do you propose Israel should do? Let us say they lifted the blockade and completely ignored rocket attacks and Hamas infiltration, relying on internal security and air defence to minimize the damage. What do you suppose would happen?
Tell us what you would do if you were steering the Israeli ship of state?
Look at the difference between the 6-day and Yom Kippur wars. Israel would be starting much in the position of the second, with a less significant force advantage.
And I said a peaceful movement. Hamas has alienated the Isralie left by, among other things, hitting the coastal plain areas where they live with rockets. And the tunnels. And the attack on the airport, and…
Panzeh
3295
And it’s Likud’s mission statement to ensure Palestinians never get their independence. Jewish Home’s is to push them into their neighboring countries. Hamas has been open to recognizing the state of Israel and has made offers in the past. We can quote extremists at each other all day but I don’t think that’s a great way to get at either side’s motivation.
Israel decided to arrest a bunch of people who the Palestinians had traded for in previous prisoner exchanges after the murder of three Israeli teens(there’s no proof this was Hamas), Hamas retaliated by firing rockets, Israel retaliated by bombing Gaza, and here we are. I think they were looking for an excuse after the Fatah-Hamas unity government and seek to split it.
I guess you seem to implicitly trust Israeli intentions while I don’t. I trust Hamas and the PA a lot more than you do. We’ll probably never agree.
What do you propose Israel should do? Let us say they lifted the blockade and completely ignored rocket attacks and Hamas infiltration, relying on internal security and air defence to minimize the damage. What do you suppose would happen?
Tell us what you would do if you were steering the Israeli ship of state?
If I were steering the Israeli ship of state, I would negotiate a truce with Hamas. Truces with Hamas have historically been the best way to reduce the amount of rocket fire. A long term settlement would have to be made to reduce that to zero, but I think it’s possible.
Panzeh
3296
Netenyahu got elected in a lull in violence. The Israeli left has done nothing of use.
Then fine, ignore the left and attack Israel wholesale. Don’t be surprised when you deal with the right, though.
Hamas has been open to recognizing the state of Israel
Link. To Hamas saying that, note.
And if you have one iota of trust for Hamas, a terror organisation who attack civilians as policy…
Panzeh
3298
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/04/28/report-hamas-open-to-recognizing-israel-in-unity-deal-with-pa/
I consider only marginally better than Assad’s army in Syria in terms of conduct.
The IDF also attacks civilians as policy. Unless you want to say it doesn’t, in which case, Tel Aviv is a valid military target because the IDF HQ is there, and the IDF is in fact a military target. The mere fact of having military facilities in or near city centers is not necessarily evidence of war crime.
Also the combatant:nomcombatant kill ratio for Hamas and Israel says quite a bit as well. And if you scream human shields…
[I]
Amnesty International, for its part, did not find evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian groups violated the laws of war to the extent repeatedly alleged by Israel. In particular, it found no evidence that Hamas or other fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. By contrast, Amnesty International did find that Israeli forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve as “human shields”. In any event, international humanitarian law makes clear that use of “human shields” by one party does not release the attacking party from its legal obligations with respect to civilians.
Amnesty International delegates interviewed many Palestinians who complained about Hamas’ conduct, and especially about Hamas’ repression and attacks against their opponents, including killings, torture and arbitrary detentions, but did not receive any accounts of Hamas fighters having used them as “human shields”.
[/I]
Of course, this is from a report on Operation Cast Lead from 2009.
A reduction in rocket fire, even to “only” one or two a month, isn’t much of a truce, it’s blatant, ongoing terrorism, and it shows, precisely, that Hamas’ words are not to be trusted.
IOW, either the organization’s right hand doesn’t know what its left hand is doing, in which case there’s no entity there that can be treated with, or it shows cynical disregard, in which case it’s not an entity that can be treated with.
Panzeh
3300
As i’ve said before, Hamas is not the only political organization in Gaza capable of firing rockets. Palestinian Islamic Jihad, PFLP, and other smaller groups fire rockets, too, and Hamas did their best to lean on them. Israel did nothing about the blockade during the lull, either, so clearly they can’t be trusted, either, as part of the truce was a deal for some kind of relief of the blockade. Asking Hamas to go all out to eliminate all opposition rightward without a serious Israeli commitment to Palestinian independence is ludicrous.
How is the Israeli government an entity that can be treated with if parts of the ruling coalition just nix any part of deals they don’t like? For example, in the most recent Palestinian-Israeli talks, Netenyahu agreed to release prisoners in exchange for the PA not going to the UN for recognition. However, his coalition partners decided(or forced him) to approve 3500 new building projects in the West Bank, pretty much torpedoing any good will by going public with the idea that the prisoners were exchanged for settlements. This might seem innocuous, but what it did was basically force the PA off the table or risk losing credibility with their own people as more settlements plop up on their land.
