The Palestinians won’t accept anything short of 67 borders. Israel, for her part, is unwilling to consider the idea and the hawkish circles are quite happy with the slow annexation of the West Bank. It helps that Israel has shifted so far to the right over the past twenty years. There is little appetite for peace and the sacrifices that it would require.

I can only feel a sense of sadness when I think of Israel. Tribalism has become an acceptable rationale for barbarism. There is little in the way of introspection, there is no understanding of the stain that it leaves on their souls. When the zionists raised their glasses and cried next year in Jerusalem! … I don’t think this it what they dreamed of, I don’t think is what they wanted.

BS. They could stop fighting, disarm, turn their energies to peaceful pursuits. Then the blockade would be lifted, maybe relations normalized in a generation or two, and peace.

It’s like saying the IRA and the Protestants had no choice but to bomb and kidnap and kill each other in perpetuity, no, they had a choice and they chose to stop fighting. Took awhile but it happened.

Well no. Because it’s not the same thing at all.

“Next year in Yerushalem” is a religious toast said at the Passover seders every year. It refers not to the modern day Israel but to the concept of Jerusalem when it is in Eretz Yisrael proper, which we will only have in the future Messianic era. It’s entirely incorrect to use it in this context. (For that matter, some traditional views add “the rebuilt”, which refers to the Third Temple, which will be built in that era).

The very religious American (and the few Israeli) Jews who don’t believe in the modern day Israel? Say that toast. For that matter, a significant proportion of the Zionist founders of Israel were non-religious, Communist, and some were even actively anti-religious.

Please don’t use badly researched religious toasts like that.

Anyway;

“Zionism” is a mixture of a wide range of philosophies - I practice Labour Zionism, which is the worker’s Zionism - the Zionism of the Haganuh and the Histadrut, the Zionism of Ben-Gurion, of Einstein and of Rabin (of blessed memory) - and today is nearly identical to the peace movement.

I, on the other hand condemn Revisionist Zionism, Jabotinsky’s Zionism, the Zionism of the far right, of the Irgun. The Zionism of Begin, Shamir and Netanyahu, and of Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu. (Sharon basically renounced it in his last years). The Zionism of the hawks.

There is a strong majority for peace in Israel, and a narrower one among the Palestinians. If Israel was dealing only with Fatah, we’d of had one well before now, but sadly we’re also dealing with Hamas. Every time Israel’s made a “sacrifice”, Hamas has used it as a wedge for further attacks, that’s the reality of the situation. There are zealots on both sides, but Israel remains a democratic country of law - Peace Now have had a good deal of success in the courts battling the settlements, for example - whereas Hamas seized the Gaza strip by force.

The reality is there is a strong majority in the Knesset of parties which support a 2-state solution, and Yisrael Beiteinu are splitting themselves off from Likud, taking a more hawkish stance for themselves but dramatically increasing the manoeuvring room Netanyahu has to talk to Fatah. And for all the protest, the reform to raise the vote % for Knesset seats to 3.25% in the next election will do a lot to stabilise Israeli politics against fringe parties.

Soapy - Wouldn’t take two generations. A decade at most…look at Northern Ireland.

You are spouting propaganda in service of Israel, I really hope they pay you well.

Oh fuck off. You’re explicitly supporting Hamas, a terrorist organisation which explicitly targets civilians.

I condemn the Israeli government, I am a Labour Zionist, I support Peace Now…but you lash out at me regardless because I refuse to condemn Israel as a whole. You’re making a wild accusation, and one which make me think you’re far more than simply anti-Israel.

Have you missed the news lately, do you think the rockets are being fired cause they are having some recent fucking bad day! It’s a huge prison camp, where Israel holds all the keys!! The rockets fired are a pitiful last gasp of a people repressed into oblivion, if this doesn’t bother you then raise the brown flag, cause you are on that boat now.

Israel is never going to go back to 67 borders and Hamas is never gonna stop shooting rockets into Israel. So now what? If I am leading Israel, I continue to prosecute the war until the ability for Hamas to shoot those rockets is removed, whatever that means. I am still surprised how many people, and governments, are fooled by Hamas though, and blame Israel for civilian casualties. You can google videos that show Hamas admitting to everything Israel accuses them of, rockets, tunnels, human shields, etc.

Spoken like a man who has no practical solution to offer. Anyone who champions one side in this conflict and demonizes the other is just part of the problem.

Then Israel is in a quandary. A quandary of their own making.

That’s the point, they could have avoided this, and as for Hamas building tunnels and rockets, they will continue, Hamas is like all other movements spawned by the conflict, as long as there are Palestinians alive on Gaza under these conditions , there will be Hamas, you will have to kill ALL of them. This is how Taliban started, in refugee camps, where you will get people who live by draconian laws that come from living under these conditions. Israel is reaping what they sow.

So there are two solutions here, simple as pie, either Israel kills ALLLL the Palestinian, and then wonder why nobody likes them anymore, or they give back some land, and try to get a FUCKING treaty. You can’t ask Hamas to give anymore, they got only blood to give.

I once played a rugby match where two of our team got badly injured (broken leg and broken arm) and i received boot studs all across my back, and pretty much we all finished the match bloodied beyond ‘normal’. Basically the team we played against were not playing by the rules (certainly not in the spirit of the game) and in the second half the ref halted the match for persistent foul play by the other team. That team ended up being disqualified from the division and a couple of their players faced criminal charges for GBH.

Everything has a certain level of control and moderation required. Else we simply end up back in the stone age where the guy with the biggest club wins (and as modern evolved people, we really wouldn’t want that type of world!). One of our responsibilities as modern humans is to see that we keep progressing, no matter how hard that challenge.

One basic question is how long do you carry on a struggle that, for all practical purposes, was lost decades ago? The Palestinians were screwed by the Ottomans, the British, the other Arabs, the Israelis, the world community, and probably Martians as well. In 1917, in the 1930s, in 1948, in 1967, there were decision points that could have gone the other way, but they didn’t. In most cases around the world, when stuff like this happened, the people affected assimilated into other cultures/states, died off, or dispersed into ineffectiveness. The Palestinians, for good or ill, have remained, and have increased in numbers, and even though there is a substantial diaspora, they remain heavily concentrated where they were, which is right where the people who defeated them live as well.

This is a weird situation, and fairly unprecedented. If, as Janster holds, they have a perpetual justification for struggle against a long timeline of oppression, one has to question whether it’s worth it, as it seems utterly unlikely to generate anything positive for them, any more than the struggles of Cochise or Geronimo ultimately did for the Native Americans, probably less. I’d agree Israel has not lived up to its moral obligations; as a Jew, I have very conflicted feelings about a state that on the one hand represented a haven for oppressed Jews in the wake of the Shoa, but which also has become an expression of very un-Jewish ideology and philosophy, not to mention actions. But the idea that at this point HAMAS and the other groups engaged in similar activities would ever stop attacking Israel, even with a treaty, seems farfetched. And not just because I feel there are too many on the Palestinian side who owe their entire status and power to maintaining a state of conflict–there are those in Israel’s security establishment who also would only lose power and influence if a more peaceful status quo came about.

Personally, I’ve always had qualms about a state based on an ethno-religious identity; a “Jewish state” may have some historical justification, but it makes me as uneasy in many ways as an “Islamic state,” or a “Christian state” would or does. This is especially true when even within Israel there is so much trouble deciding who is actually a “real” Jew, and where a minority but still too many tend to view non-Jews as demonstrably inferior. Yet I can’t but be disgusted with the perpetuation of attacks on Israeli soft targets that not only are terroristic in nature, but have virtually no chance of accomplishing anything useful. We seem to be at the point where fighting just for the sake of showing you’re still struggling takes precedent over actually doing something constructive, and responding just to be seen as strong holds sway over making concessions that might actually move things forward.

I’m hitting the like button for Wombat’s post.

Yep, Israel are bad guys in this, but Hamas are just unredeemable bad guys period.

I’m not quite sure that’s exactly what Wombat is trying to say.

I wonder, were the French resistance terrorist? Would they have been classed as such today? The Germans certainly saw them as such, does this mean they were terrorists. Are Hamas going to be in power unless they show they are able to hurt those who threaten their own, the demand for revenge is pretty high in Gaza, they have a lot of grievances…

What a surprise, you’re playing the Nazi card to defend attacking civilians, and only civilians. From their own territory. When did the French Resistance do that, again?

And Hamas seized power in Gaza. Keep ignoring that.

You are so brave to encourage Hamas to sacrifice the innocent civilians of Gaza on the altar of revenge.

Peace can only be achieved by forsaking violence and revenge. It’s pretty obvious that violent means have not and will not improve the Palestinians’ position. Fatah realized it, as did all the Arab countries except apparently Qatar.

How did Hezbullah win? How did Egypt achieve peace?

So you agree.