Whenever the French or Norwegian resistance pulled a trick, the Germans usually executed a whole village of innocents in retribution, this was very well known, it did not deter them much, your point?

The situations are in no way comparable. Hamas is not fighting against an occupying army with some hope of liberation in the future, they are attacking repeatedly and constantly their neighbour when at any time they could just stop attacking and negotiate a permanent peace.

Hamas is engaged in an utterly unnecessary struggle against an opponent they cannot meaningfully harm.

So an hour and a half into the agreed 3 days cease fire, Hamas sent a suicide bomber, and possibly managed to use the ensuing confusion to take a hostage. Apparently they don’t care about civilian casualties that will be added to the tally. Such a vicious organization who don’t care about sacrificing so many of their people in their
pursuit to destroy another people.

‘Israel attacks on Gaza ‘foolish’ and ‘disproportionate’ - Ashdown’:

The ex-leader of the Liberal Democrats has called Israel’s attacks on Gaza “foolish” and “disproportionate”.

And Lord Ashdown was joined by Deputy PM Nick Clegg, who called for peace talks and an end to the violence.

It comes after a short-lived ceasefire collapsed amid mutual recriminations and a former defence minister became the latest Tory MP to call on No 10 to take a firmer stance on the crisis.

Peter Luff said Israel’s actions were “brutal” and “difficult to justify”.

Meanwhile, Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said both sides had to act proportionately and that agreeing a ceasefire was priority.

Speaking to the BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Lord Ashdown said neither Israel nor Palestine could “blast their way to victory” and that the only way forward was for them to “sit down and talk to each other”.

Lord Ashdown said negotiations between Israel and Hamas may not be pleasant, but he compared the situation to the conflicts in Bosnia and Northern Ireland where peace deals were brokered.

“In Bosnia particularly, you had to talk to very unpleasant people,” he said.

“[Former Serbian president Slobodan] Milosevic was not the kind of person you would invite round to dinner but you had to talk to him.”

Lord Ashdown, formerly the UK’s special representative in Bosnia, said Israel had been “very foolish” to launch its military strikes given it had the “best anti-missile system in the world”.

He said Israel had lost the “support and sympathy of world opinion”.

Had UK troops in Afghanistan or Northern Ireland retaliated to civilian attacks and fired back, they would have been “guilty of a crime”, he said.

Negotiate a peace for what? That’s really easy for us to say when we don’t have to live under the Israeli boot. Fuck Hamas, but fuck Israel too. They treat the Palestinians terribly, they bulldoze their homes, they keep them locked down and repressed.

Maybe if the peace were more worth having there’d be more pressure from the Palestinians to settle for one.

And they apparently used a tunnel to do it. Those tunnels need to be closed.

Zak - So Ashdown thinks that Israel has to sit and be pasted with rockets? “Lovely” (Never mind they’re not 100% in effectiveness and coverage, the massive cost of doing so, etc.). And no, returning fire when directly fired on is not a crime.

Milosevic was also indited by (and brought before, although he died before the trial ended) the ICTY, not “negotiated with”.

Yes Israel has a lot to answer for but the solution is for the fighting to stop and a permanent 2 state solution be negotiated. A percent peace, one that is not viewed by the Palestinians as a quiet period to build up their forces for another attack on Israel.

Hamas and the legitimate PA are both repressive governments in their own right, according to the UN guilty of abusing their own people with extra judicial killings, warrantless arrests, torture… they aren’t glorious freedom fighters they are just thugs with a vested interest in continuing the conflict indefinitely. If there were peace, what would happen to Hamas? Their organization would lose all purpose and in the end their own people would turn on them.

It’s an old retort, but war and violence have resolved quite a few issues. Violence returned the Sinai and lead to the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon. Can Hamas replicate that? They believe they can, and it’s a reasonable bet.

Returning the Sinai was part of a peace deal (I note that Egypt refused to take Gaza back…), and the withdrawal from Lebanon was an unilateral Israeli peace initiative.

This is not the same as terrorist attacks. Why do you think it’d produce the same results?

Soapy - Eh. I’d point out that that the Muslim Brotherhood, which they sprung from, didn’t have that issue (other issues, yes, but…)

This old ‘Israeli boot’ it’s disingenuous. Gaza was left to its own devices in 1995 and could have I dunno, start building itself and its relation with Israel in order to lead for more freedom and less independence on Israel and finally having a state. Instead it choose to convince most Israelis that it’s goal is to destroy Israel. Why should Israel lift the blockade? To allow them to get their hands on better rockets freely.

Violence absolutely did not return the Sinai to Egypt, unless you think it was Egypt getting completely beaten in the '73 and almost seeing Cairo occupied by Israeli troops. No, the Sinai came back to Egypt after Egypt signed a permanent peace treaty with Israel and pledged to leave the Sinai demilitarized. Even then Israel waited a good 5 years to make sure Egypt was dealing in good faith before handing it back.

As for Hezbollah, sure Israel left Lebanon partly because the conflict was too expensive and a moral quagmire, but Hezbollah and Israel are not at peace, are they? And look how well Hezbollah has done… partial control of a shattered country, whose government they sabotage at every opportunity… their main brag that they have more rockets than they have ever had before. How lucky for the people of southern Lebanon, living under the thumb of a criminal gang who extracts protection money from them to buy more rockets.

I think people make the mistake of thinking Hamas are freedom fighters. No, Hamas’ first priority is really the destruction of Israel. If they really cared for Palestinians they’d hardly be shooting from populated areas.

IL is correct, I think, in that the October War was a very Clauswitzian ploy by Sadat–the only way to get the treaty that ended hostilities with Israel was to force Israel to acknowledge Egypt as more or less an equal, and that meant battlefield success. Keep in mind Egypt didn’t have to “win” by any stretch of the imagination; simply rocking the IDF back on its heels and scaring the dickens out of them in the first few days of the war, and clinging on to a shred of Sinai at the end, was enough to convince the Israelis that if Cairo wanted to talk, maybe it was worth their while. Note that Assad’s relative lack of success, even though the offensive in the Golan was initially scarier, and Damascus’ unwillingness to talk, did not gain similar results for Syria (which actually went into the war thinking that they were seriously going for Israel’s throat, something Sadat never intended; he played Assad like a drum).

So it was war, as an extension of politics, that leveraged the peace deal between Sadat and Begin. Whether one wants to say that violence solved something, or whether warfare created the conditions for diplomacy, thee was certainly a connection.

But the analogy with HAMAS I think is weak. Even Hezbollah had the advantage of being in a place that the Israelis were traditionally not, and which they had no direct interest in occupying. They wanted to control PLO access to northern Israel, and they wanted to destroy as much of the Palestinian organization and military power as they could, but even though they occupied parts of Lebanon for nearly 20 years, it wasn’t a place they ever wanted to hold in perpetuity. What is HAMAS actually expecting to get out of all of this violence? Israel isn’t going anywhere. Israel cannot open up Gaza without ironclad guarantees and monitoring to prevent arms inflows, and the chances of them getting an inspection and monitoring regime they can trust, and which the Palestinians will cooperate with, seems slim. HAMAS has used social programs and non-military interventions in Gaza to solidify its power, but at its core its reputation, status, and power rests on violence. If it actually got the Israelis to lift the blockade–they already have withdrawn from Gaza proper, years ago–does anyone really think HAMAS would settle down to being a purely political party interested in the welfare of its citizens, and trying to build a prosperous, peaceful Gaza? Very little in their past points to this outcome. So I really don’t see exactly what their violence is supposed to achieve, other than a sense of resistance and a continuing justification for their own existence.

That is not to say IL doesn’t have a point–from the Palestinian POV, resistance itself seems to have become a viable goal. Whether that is something we should accept, any more than we should accept perpetual Israeli occupation of territories it captured in war and its often heavy-handed, to say the least, administration of same, is another matter entirely. Both sides have developed cultures where violence can be easily justified, and sometimes, may even BE justified, but where such violence has all too often become the goal, not the means.

I don’t believe that Sadat went in intending peace, frankly (shit, it got him assassinated!). Syria very very nearly DID manage to get it’s attack through (at one point there were just six tanks left between them and spreading out into Northern Israel), and Israel only managed that because Jordan turned a blind eye to airstrikes via Jordanian airspace.

(Golda Meir was negligent, to put it mildly. King Hussein of Jordan, who’d been tipped off, flew into Israel to warn her and she brushed it off!)

Moreover, Hamas hasn’t done a fraction of the things for the people of Gaza that Hezbollah has done in Lebanon, not least since to a significant degree it’s not “their” people in the same way. Moreover, while Hezbollah has an uneasy relationship with the Lebanese government, it’s far better than Fatah-Hezbollah relations.

The reality in this case is that there are tunnels (both built and being built) into Israeli coastal areas, which can’t effectively be detected without finding the Gaza end. Yes, Hamas have turned to them because of Iron Dome making their rockets far less effective…but that’s a change of terror tactics, and does not excuse them.

Well, the research on the October War is pretty clear in showing that Sadat made a very calculating choice; he never intended to push for a complete victory, as he knew it was impossible, and in fact he deceived Assad by letting the Syrians believe Egypt was going for broke. The problem the Egyptians had was that they were too successful too early, and people began pushing to extend the bridgeheads farther than they had intended, and beyond the SAM umbrella. But I think it’s been clearly established that Sadat was desperate to get Egypt out of the cycle of endless conflict for no gain, and to get rid of the Russians too. His assassination was more about the Muslim Brotherhood’s general opposition to a whole bunch of things; I’m not sure the actual treaty with Israel was even the most significant part of that.

The French generally attacked German troops, police, etc in France. They didn’t lob rockets at German civilians in the Ruhr. Nice try though.

It’s one analysis that the Yom Kippur war made Israel more willing to negotiate a lasting peace, but the fact is post war it was Sadat who aggressively pursued the peace process, and did not let up until he had a concrete results.

The war was pretty much unnecessary, in fact all the fighting since '48 was unnecessary, if the Arabs had gone along with UN partition plan, Palestine would be a viable independent country today in far far better shape. Every successive war and conflict has worsened the lot of the Palestinians compared to where they would be if there simply hadn’t been any fighting.

While there’s truth to that view, it’s one that requires dispassionate analysis. When masses of people are being displaced from their homes, that’s a lot to ask.

Though it will never happen, here’s my view on the best approach to permanent peace in the region:

  1. Israel withdraws to its 1967 borders, dismantling all settlements.
  2. To ease the transition, the US increases economic aid substantially for a number of years.
  3. The US also provides a unilateral defensive guarantee of Israeli territorial integrity. Any nation that attacks them will find itself at war with the US as well. Given how we’ve stomped all over the region at will militarily during the last two decades, such a guarantee would tend to be given respect.
  4. The Palestinian government is required to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist and the validity of the 1967 borders.

No one would be completely happy with this approach, which means it’s a decent compromise. It will never happen, though. I can’t see Israel leaving the West Bank in my lifetime. They keep doubling down on their creeping expansion there.

1967 with adjustments has been the basis for a long time. For both Israelis and Palestinians. There are communities around which the border would need to go in some places, any hardline approach is just fighting the concept as a whole. Moreover, Jerusalem is going to need special handling AND there’s no chance Israel will give up the Golan Heights as long as there’s a civil war in Syria.

Moreover, we can see exactly how well guarantees of territory worked for the Ukraine, and Fatah agreeing to something won’t bind Hamas.

Thanks for that, Dave - since you’re American, under your theory of government=people you evidently (I believe you mean what you say) support the NSA, etc. - nasty.

Alternately simply an unwillingness to resort to violence.