Okay, lets see here.

A) If you are Israeli on land Hamas considers occupied, I’d say you’re pretty much fair game, its war you know, not a game, there aren’t really any rules beyond what makes you WIN

b) Hamas does like the french resistance, they consider the civilian casualties acceptable in order to further their goal of winning this conflict, and again, they are not playing a fucking game, this is very real and very dangerous. That the Germans did the killing, doesn’t stop the moral issue of them being the cause of the reaction. This was VERY well known to them, and yet they did not stop their work.

c) Civilians and terrorism, unlike say the terrorism done at Mumbay or 9/11, Hamas is located IN a war-zone under attack BY a foreign force, that is a world of difference in my eyes. We can sit outside the conflict and point fingers and cry about innocent civilians, but the fact is they are a tool to END the war for Hamas…
What would you do?

A) You’re still unaware of the difference between West Bank and Gaza, I see. And right, you think kids are “fair game” for their parents actions, for instance. Moreover, no, terrorism is not a war.
B) You continue to spit hate at the French resistance
C) You continue to make excuses for Hamas

I would not be a terrorist following a genocidal charter, and glory in murdering civilians. You evidently disagree.

If this is your stance you have no room to complain about Israeli actions on any level.

b) Hamas does like the french resistance, they consider the civilian casualties acceptable in order to further their goal of winning this conflict, and again, they are not playing a fucking game, this is very real and very dangerous. That the Germans did the killing, doesn’t stop the moral issue of them being the cause of the reaction. This was VERY well known to them, and yet they did not stop their work.

Lot’s of “real and dangerous” things are also stupid, suicidal, criminal, etc etc. Since you like to use the French Resistance as an example, I will counter by saying it’s contribution to the strategic situation in world war 2 was almost nil, all French civilians who died or were hurt in reprisals were basically in vain.

What would you do?

I’d recognize when a cause is lost and turn my energy to peacefully improving things.

‘Lady Warsi resigns over UK’s ‘morally reprehensible’ stance on Gaza’:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/05/lady-warsi-resigns-government-gaza-stance

Lady Warsi, the senior Foreign Office minister, has resigned from the government in protest at its policy on Gaza, describing it as “morally indefensible”.

Warsi announced her departure on Twitter on Tuesday, saying: “With deep regret I have this morning written to the Prime Minister & tendered my resignation. I can no longer support Govt policy on #Gaza.”

In her resignation letter, Warsi said the government’s “approach and language during the current crisis in Gaza is morally indefensible, is not in Britain’s national interest and will have a long term detrimental impact on our reputation internationally and domestically”.

She said the UK’s stance was “not consistent with the rule of law and our long support for international justice”, adding: “The British government can only play a constructive role in solving the Middle East crisis if it is an honest broker and at the moment I do not think it is.”

The chancellor, George Osborne, hit back immediately, saying her decision was unnecessary and insisting that ministers were committed to working to secure peace in the region.

“This a disappointing and frankly unnecessary decision,” he said. “The British government is working with others in the world to bring peace to Gaza and we do now have a tentative ceasefire which we all hope will hold.”

But Labour leader Ed Miliband said Warsi had acted with “principle and integrity” and urged Mr Cameron to re-think his position.

“I hope that David Cameron will reflect on what she says in her resignation letter and change his approach,” he told BBC News. “He needs to break his silence and say that Israel’s actions have been unjustified and indefensible. He needs to show that he can be even-handed and, without fear or favour, argue for the long-term solution that we need to this tragic conflict.”

In an interview with the Huffington Post, Warsi said: “Our position not to recognise Palestinian statehood at the UN in November 2012 placed us on the wrong side of history and is something I deeply regret not speaking out against at the time.”

The Tory peer said that, having now stood down, she wanted to “speak more freely” on the issue and her first demand after handing in her resignation letter was for the UK to introduce an arms embargo against Israel.

“It appals me that the British government continues to allow the sale of weapons to a country, Israel, that has killed almost 2,000 people, including hundreds of kids, in the past four weeks alone. The arms exports to Israel must stop.”

She was a ‘brown’ Tory though…so there is that.

You need to stop Janster. Your constant appeals to make comparisons between the French Resistance/ Hamas and Nazi Germany/ Israel is, at best, a poor choice. If I feeling generous I only would focus on the Hamas/ French connection you are making, and not bring up the fact you keep comparing Israel to the friggin Nazi’s. If I am feeling less generous I would say that this is a symptom of a deep seated anti-semitism that really has no place in this discussion.

Even focusing on the French aspect you cannot ignore how different the forces they opposed. The French resistance was designed around weakening and diverting resources from an occupying force, with the goal of draining them so that another force can eventually recapture and then occupy their oppressor. Their effectiveness at this is certainly in doubt, but to claim they are responsible for the actions the Germans took against them is facile. The Nazi’s did plenty of disgusting things without provocation in every country they occupied. Blaming the French for the bad things the Nazi’s did is twisting facts to unrecognizable rhetoric. To this end the solution you are hinting at is that Hamas is weakening Israel so that another country can invade, and then disband, them. Since you have not exactly said as much, because that would be dumb and ignorant of the myriad other factors, your comparison fails again.

Israel has lost the moral high ground. Their actions are despicable, and deserving of condemnation. This does not mean Hamas is suddenly the ‘good guys’ here. There are no good guys. If Israel had treated Palestenians with more respect and engaged with them honsestly they could have been, but that is not the course they chose. So, yeah, Hamas are bad guys here, their tactics and mission are disgusting. Israel has stooped to their level, and is complicit in continuing the circle of violence. Stop pretending Hamas has some noble mission. Stop pretending that the ends justify the means (presuming that their ends are even realistic through their means). And for goodness sake stop spouting the racist bile. It’s unbecoming what is otherwise a fairly even handed discussion.

When you say ‘Hamas is located IN a war-zone under attack BY a foreign force’ you make it sound like they were sitting there minding their own business when they were suddenly attacked by an enemy force. Every one of the conflicts since 1995 were instigated by Hamas, and they are shooting from near their own people in order to deliberately get them hurt which makes a great difference between them and the French resistance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSDF8UM1ofY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fP6mlNSK8

Here is what Hamas thinks about a viable solution to this situation. BTW this is from 2012:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KgupoduYR0dd

And Quilliam responds;

(Quilliam is an Islam, anti-Islamist think tank, and does a lot of very thoughtful analysis. The English Defence League (far, far right) co-leadership started talking to them, and ended up resigning from the EDL and in doing so specifically noted the dangers of far-right extremism, and they’ve humiliated Islamists like Anjem Choudary in online debate. Economically they’re Neocons, but still.)

First off: no. There ARE rules about attacking non-military targets in a war. Some are fairly gray, like if you kill an innocent, non-military target while you were engages in attacking a military one, but if you intentionally attack civilians who have no military value… that’s pretty much the dividing line between “insurgent” and “terrorist”.

As others have noted, if you say that “there aren’t really any rules” for one side, then it’s hypocritical to cry about the other side not following the rules.

See above. The French Resistance was large and varied, and generally not under central command. And some of them killed the innocent families of Vichy French collaborators and some of them engaged in some nasty, brutal activities. But here is the key: Those incidents were few and far between, condemned by what leadership they had, and generally stopped when possible. Hamas’ policy is basically the polar opposite.

Aw, come off it. You cannot seriously believe this last part is actually an argument. They are in a war zone that they themselves created. They are under attack by a foreign force that would not be there if they had not provoked it, and which would leave almost immediately if Hamas would cease fighting.

Ending the current conflict is within Hamas’ power. Ending the blockade of Gaza is within Hamas’ power.

I’ll just say that it’s okay to be wrong. None of us are likely able to even indirectly bring an end to the bloodshed. The only skin any of us have in this conversation is fear of being wrong on the internet - a horrific thing, no doubt, but something we’ve all had to deal with in the past (myself probably more so than a great many others). But when I’m wrong, I usually just try to own it, learn from it, and move on. I’d like to say I’ve never argued a losing point to the bitter end, but I’d be lying. However, I can safely say that I’ve always regretted it after doing so.

As for the original semi-question, I’d bet that the Nazi forces viewed the French Resistance as one facet of “the enemy,” but I honestly have no clue. In regards to the point I think Janster was trying to make, certainly a Euro-/American-centric viewpoint and prejudices which frequently accompany those will often cast members of different cultures in the worst light, and it’s important to be wary of how that may influence our views and decisions. However, we also have to guard against dismissing all judgement due to cultural relativism; there are demonstrably “good” and “bad” actions that apply regardless of where you live. It’s certainly interesting to contemplate how an individual’s definitions of those may get blurred when under extreme duress and/or mental defect, but it doesn’t mean the nature of the actions themselves change along with the perspective.

If you’re justifying that if it’s war everything’s ok, then I don’t see any issue issue with Israel killing just about every Palestinian in Gaza. No rules right? rolls eyes

Hamas isn’t putting up civilians to die to end the war. If you haven’t been living in a cave they were digging tunnels into Israel to commit acts of terror. Up till 2011, their stated purpose is the destruction of Israel, not the end of the occupation of Gaza, and till now, they do not recognise the right of Israel to exist. Their Charter still spells out irrevocable jihad against Jews.

If Hamas wasn’t lobbing rockets into Israel from time to time, and killing teenagers, I think the prospects of ending the war, and the case for lifting of restrictions and for a Palestinian state would be much better. Instead, the only way Hamas is holding on to power is to create the conditions necessary for armed struggle, without which they would have no purpose.

The only given position here is that Israel may have acted disproportionately in self-defence, but there is no doubt in anyone’s minds that Hamas is intentionally drawing fire to hospitals and civilian populations. That is reprehensible. What would I do? I don’t think I could live with intentionally putting my own people’s children in the line of fire simply for better newspaper headlines against an invading force. I’m not sure how that makes me better than the invader, at least when they kill children it’s unintentional.

I’ll have to dig into Quilliam to fully understand that, but thanks for the info :) Some more news on that resignation and a rather obvious reason why the UK government has been pretty lenient with Israel’s action in gaza:

‘David Cameron faces fresh Gaza pressure’:

The Liberal Democrats are calling for the suspension of arms export licences to Israel, adding to the pressure David Cameron is facing over Gaza.

It comes after Baroness Warsi resigned as a Foreign Office minister, arguing Downing Street’s stance on Israel’s actions was “morally indefensible”. She said the government was not doing enough to shape events, but the PM said he had been clear in calling for peace.

No 10 said a review of arms export licences was already under way. Israel launched Operation Protective Edge last month with the stated aim of ending rocket attacks and destroying tunnels used by Palestinian militants.

Gaza officials say the conflict has killed 1,800 Palestinians, while 67 Israelis have also died. The two sides agreed a 72-hour ceasefire, which came into force at 08:00 local time (05:00 GMT) on Tuesday.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said the Israeli military operation in Gaza had “overstepped the mark” and called for the suspension of arms export licences to Israel. He said he had been working with his Lib Dem colleague and business secretary Vince Cable to get the suspension finalised, saying an announcement would be made “very shortly”.

Speaking about the potential suspension of licences, Mr Cable said senior Lib Dems had been “making this case inside government”, but said they had “not yet been able to get agreement” with Tory coalition partners.

“I hope and expect that to change shortly,” he said.

A Downing Street spokesman said a review of export licences to Israel was under way, and no new military licences had been issued since the Israeli operation was launched.

“Suspending export licences is not a decision we take lightly and it is right that we examine the facts fully. This is the approach being taken by the vast majority of countries,” the spokesman said.

I’m sort of a little surprised that we sell so many weapons/tech to Israel. They are easily the largest customer the UK arms industry has!! Of course if we did stop selling to them (as we should imho), they would just pick up the slack from the USA…but a point is sometimes worth making.

Don’t hold your breath hoping for any significant decrease in arms sales to, well, just about anyone. Between the way categories of goods can be shifted around to become, magically, non-lethal or non-military, to the raw influence of lots of money, to the desperate need most domestic arms industries have to maintain production when the country is generally at peace, there are far more pressures to keep selling stuff than there is will to stop. Once you have an arms industry, as opposed to government arsenals or whatnot, this sort of thing becomes endemic.

Indeed. Heck, if they recognised Israel and stopped attacking civilians, there would also be a far stronger case within Israel against the Isralie settlers. Don’t think Peace Now hasn’t said this…

I’m not sure what we do when partisans of one side dismiss the legitimacy of the other side out of hand.

Most observers who believe that creation of a Jewish state in Palestine resulted in the unfair dispossession of Palestinians tend to accept the proposition that Palestinians have the right to use violence in pursuit of a homeland. While these observers may not believe that HAMAS is an ideal or even an effective steward of Palestinian interests, they tend to take a dark view of Israeli security operations since, in their opinion, the most-legitimate option for Tel Aviv would be either to (A) eliminate settlements and retire to the Green Line, or (B) declare an end to the Jewish state and seek instead a unitary Israel. In other words, Israel’s is the Original Sin, and the Palestinians’ behavior, while regrettable, is at least partially defensible. It is for Israel, not the Palestinians, to make the meaningful sacrifices to achieve a viable peace.

According to this point-of-view, violence, including suicide bombing and attacks on Israeli population centers, is a legitimate form of resistance against colonial occupation by a people in duress (the Palestinians). By that same logic, HAMAS can almost never be “at fault” for starting another round of hostilities because it is, in fact, a representative of the aggrieved party. Indeed, HAMAS, while awful, is merely the inevitable cancer that Israel brought about through years of chain smoking (occupation and settlement-building). Israel’s steady march rightward and taste for settlement-building vindicate the view that it is a settler state in the mold of apartheid-era South Africa and Rhodesia.

This apologetic view of HAMAS also tends to downplay the group’s anti-Semitic rhetoric as entirely the result of misplaced grievance over the loss of land and dignity, not a genuine desire to kill Jews arising from some mass cultural, religious, or historical defect. The idea is that, were Israel more accommodating, there would be less outage, and therefore less tendency to vilify a whole people.

Most observers who favor Israel regard the Palestinians as an unfortunate minority that lost rightful claim to their land during a war fought for utterly cynical reasons by faithless neighbors who have proven to be equally as guilty of neglect of the Palestinian plight as Israel itself. Israel’s post-1948 conquest of territory is either valid on the face of it (because might makes right in a bad world), or because that territory was acquired through inherently self-legitimizing wars of self-defense. Britain, not Israel, was the original transgressor, but it is hardly productive to rehash such an old and difficult problem. We must accede to reality, and the reality is that Israel, like every other nation-state in the world today, has an ugly past in which some people were winners, and others losers. The Palestinians are therefore a sympathetic party, but are held to blame for failing, as a people, to accommodate the harsh reality in which they live. If they do not vote into office politicians willing to make the bitter concessions that history and fickle friends have forced on them, then they will pay the price, which is war.

This perspective takes each skirmish and subsequent escalation on its own merits. Here, HAMAS is to blame because immediate hostilities can be traced back to the murder of three Israeli teenagers. Whereas some claim that the murders were carried out by a splinter group not loyal to the original HAMAS, this view discounts that defense, either because guilt-by-association is an inherent hazard of terrorism, or because HAMAS’s claim to sovereignty makes it implicitly guilty of all violence carried out in the name of Palestinians even when it cannot enforce its own monopoly on violence. (This is a view of juridical legitimacy carried over from the Treaty of Westphalia in 1848, which contended that a prince who is accorded sovereignty must restrain his subjects from independently making war on his neighbors.) For persons who feel this way, Israel’s increasingly right-wing political tilt and settlement-building are rarely considered, let alone mentioned, and are, at best, regrettable.

Of course, no matter whose side you come down on, the better question is, “Okay, well how do we get out of this?” If you can’t accept the answer, “By swallowing a bitter pill,” then repeated rounds of mutual bombardment are all we’ll ever get until the Palestinians figure out how to defeat the Iron Dome or succeed in driving world opinion to the point that Israel is as much a pariah as South Africa. The only “out” for Israel is to devise a strategy that effectively amounts to nation-building in the Occupied Territories – one that may eventually lead to the conclusion that a two-state solution is functionally impossible given the natural geography of the region.

What we have here is essentially a frozen conflict in which the battle lines never seem to change. It’s as if the police (Israel) continually raid the same crack house (Occupied Territories) every week, seize all the guns, but never make any meaningful progress because they don’t have a community policing strategy. Meanwhile, the municipality itself (global community) is slowly coming to believe that drug sales and violence (terrorism) are a manifestation of social inequality and police brutality, not a reflection of the inherent values of one particular neighborhood (Palestinians). Israel has spent all of its money on a SWAT team without making very meaningful strides in the area of providing education and jobs. The Palestinians, meanwhile, have decided that, the police being what they are, there can be no hope of friendly, mutually enriching relationships. Therefore, drug dealers are tolerable neighbors – at least they’ve got guns to keep the police away.

For now, the Wall and the Iron Dome have together drastically reduced Israel’s inclination to compromise. Indeed, the Israeli right grows stronger by the day, leading to a measurable increase in the construction of settlements and the perpetuation of an occupation that stokes violent grievance. What are the Palestinian Territories but an economically inviable prison in which the only glorious and fruitful occupation is armed struggle?

There was cash for education, jobs and infrastructure in Gaza, much of it provided after the Isralie withdrawal. There was some looting, a bit of arson, threats to schools…and it went away. Heck, they have one of the most beautiful coastlines in the world, with amazing beaches and an airport and could have captured a significant amount of the Arab tourist trade. The Palestinian leadership…decided differently.

Also, I’d point out Hamas is not poor. At all.

In polling, the Israeli right are polling an average of 62 Knesset seats, up 1 (one) from the last elections. The latest action in Gaza has broad support not because people love the Israeli government, but because of the terror tunnels, the attacks on Ben Gurion airport and the kidnapping and murder of those students. Moreover, armed struggle does not necessarily mean targeting civilians, but oddly enough Hamas rockets are never aimed at military targets. There’s no justification for their actions.

My guess is that most of those who find at Israel at fault would simply argue that this is equivalent to throwing the kicked dog a bone but not dealing with his overall pattern of starvation.

I don’t disagree that Hamas has been spectacularly bad at government, but I’d guess that even had they done good things with the Israeli money, a lot of the underlying grievance would persist. This is a problem of dignity, not dollars.

Armed struggle has usually meant that civilians are “in play” when easily accessible. It is useless to target military forces only. War is about inflicting pain. It is not a delicate tit-for-tat between two armed forces. The whole reason that armed forces exist is to interpose between adversaries and political objectives (e.g., enemy capitals) or centers of gravity (e.g., population centers, manufacturing centers).

Historically neither side has ever really honored their obligations, which is how we got here in the first place.

I can’t find myself taking sides when they’re both pretty shitty, though I lean toward Israel since they’re the less deplorable actor.

That’s an argument against peace, you realise? Peace would bring allies. Lots of allies. Fatah is nasty, but you can negotiate with them. With Hamas? They see it as weakness.

ShivaX - In general, the Israeli government is pretty bad, but I can’t see they really had much option but to go in and shut the tunnels down this time. They’ve made some bad tactical decisions while doing it, but frankly there’s no good way to send troops into Gaza.

That still leaves shit like the settlements though, and as I’ve said before, I support Peace Now and **** the settlers.

Yeah, those settlements… bad faith, really.

I have not enough time to follow these debates well enough, also my English doesn’t always support my views well, but thank you Desert Journeyman for pulling apart this conflict for all to see, and to remind people that one quick look at the map and the problem is laid out for anyone.

I have personally met people who have fought and lived in this conflict, they hate Israel beyond words, a Christian youth woman in Norway just today complained that she could not hold a pro-Israeli with fear of being attacked…well it’s just that sometimes certain views will provoke people beyond words, and there is a valid reason for it too, you are not automagically the victim then.