Yea, there’s definitely a difference in attitudes between North America and Europe on this. You don’t really have many people who buy into the New Anti-Semitism and cloak anti-Jewish language in blaming “Zionists” for instance, whereas that’s becoming a major issue here. Oh, you have a few nutcases who go on about the ZOG etc., but you have a few nutcases who believe basically any given set of views. (no offence ^^)
But I can certainly argue against the Israeli settlements and settlers, and for differentiating between Fatah (who are corrupt and nasty) and Hamas (who are terrorist, murdering…). Again, though, you can’t really blame the people in Gaza for having voted for them back in 2006 - they seized complete control shortly afterwards, and IF there were elections today (and there can’t be), it’s VERY unlikely they’d win* - and the vote was less pro-Hamas and anti-Fatah’s corruption in the first place.
(*You also have to bear in mind that opposing Hamas, as a Palestinian in Gaza, tends to end up with you being rather, well, dead)
Timex
3442
In the US, you actually have some of the pro-Israeli conservatives being pro-Israel for weird religious reasons, like the Jews need to be in control of Israel for JESUS to come back, and crap like that.
But for me, I’m pro Israel because the Palestinians act like jackasses.
Yes, i consider myself a Democrat and I think Israel has way too much influence in US politics, but I agree and think any country would react similarly if in Israel’s situation. We already know the USA more than did.
Israel certainly isn’t perfect, but it isn’t exactly hard for me to support them over a known terrorist organization.
Sorry Timex, but your doing the same as Starlight (and many right-wing pro-Israeli-anti-Palestinian types) re being a bit ‘blinkered’ and one sided in the information you choose to remember in the sad recent history of the region:
As a part Jew, as a british person, i’m completely aware of the mess we created by not doing the job properly in the creation of the Jewish state, and now i see the mess getting out of control because the militarily dominant power in this conflict acts with little constraint, or even worse, wishes it could get away with more damage than the history of deaths (if we want to add up Israeli vs Palestinian deaths, and maybe go as far as to do a body count on women and children (ie innocent families)?) per side shows. Speaking as an ex-military man, i see no excuse for the deliberate killing of women and children in any conflict, even this one with it’s terrible history of destruction and vengeance.
Israel has a right to exist, but sadly it has allowed radical extremists to gain control of it’s destiny and that will seal it’s doom. It doesn’t have to be this way, and if both sides were able to get over the history for a second they would find a ‘fair’ (as in not all the best stuff going to Israel) deal for peace could be found. Currently the thinking, because extremists are in control, is simply ‘kill them all’. That was why i used the term final solution up thread. I was not being ironic, as that is definitely the path extremists take you down, and Jewish people of all people in the world should know this.
Ah, so despite the fact I’m not right wing, not saying the same thing as Timex, that you’re Jewish or not…
No, the only way it does “not have to be this way” in Gaza is if Hamas’s attacks are not suppressed. Then you bring up 1948, where both sides wanted a panic, in a war started by the Arab leadership, a war of extermination they launched.
If the Israeli government really wanted genocide in Gaza, it’d take about three days - the reality you are repeating an extremist cant. YOU are an extremist for using that, plain and simple. You say that fighting terrorism means there’s “little constraint”. No, Israel should just take it, etc. - the choices were
a. Invade and close the tunnels (and unfortunately deal with the fact they use Human shields) or
b. Have attacks launched from tunnels into civilian communities.
That’s it, as long as Hamas follows it’s current path. There’s a reason they’re called terrorists. (And you know what? You pick b, and then you’d see some of the REAL genocidal crazies get elected, rather than getting 2,500 votes across the entire country!)
This is the position most people I know hold regarding the conflict. Hamas is pretty messed up and they’ve only grown worse over the last decade. Some people in this thread bring up the notion that Hamas was elected, and it’s true that they were … but there’s more to the story than that, and it should be remembered whenever discussed.
In 2005, there was a Palestinian presidential election, in which Fatah won after Hamas boycotted it. However, many people in Gaza still voted for Abbas (from Fatah) and he wound up winning in a large landslide.
In 2006, there was a legislative election, and Hamas witnessed the internal disarray that had overcome Fatah, realized the folly in boycotts, and won a slim plurality while running on the “Change and Reform” platform, 44.45% vs. Fatah’s 41.43% in one vote, 40.82% vs. 35.58% in the other.
There were supposed to be elections in the future, but since then they have been “postponed” for years in Gaza (the West Bank held them, but Hamas once again boycotted those - likely knowing they’d lose). In short, a democratic election does not mean democratic rule, and Hamas has made a habit of silencing vocal opponents and rivals. You’re unlikely to get an accurate opinion poll from Gaza anytime in the near future, and so using an 8 year-old slim election victory as something that resembles the collective will of the people today is not the most advisable thing to do. Sadly, we just don’t have a whole lot to go on since then because of what appears to be some oppression of the people that Hamas purports to represent.
It’s a mess for sure, and Israel is surrounded by people that wish to do it harm. However the solution is not the destruction of the Palestinian people or the continuing theft of their lands.
And across the world marches have been held in support of those in Gaza:
‘Tens of thousands of protesters march in London for Gaza’:
Tens of thousands of people have taken part in a rally for Gaza in London. The demonstration came amid renewed violence between Israel and Palestinian militants after a three-day ceasefire ended on Friday.
An emergency appeal in the UK for people affected by the conflict in Gaza has raised £4.5m in less than 24 hours, the Disasters Emergency Committee said. Downing Street has said the UK is sending a team of NHS medical experts to the region to help those injured.
Saturday’s demonstration, organised by the Stop the War coalition and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, saw participants march past the US embassy on their way to a rally in Hyde Park.
Speakers there included Labour MP Diane Abbott, who told the crowd British people “stand in solidarity with the people of Gaza”. She said it was the “biggest demonstration yet” about Gaza.
Protester Philip McCowen, 59, from Bristol, said: “The massacre of children is outrageous. The bombing of hospitals is outrageous. Collective punishment is a crime against humanity.”
More than 1,900 Palestinians, mostly civilians, have been killed in four weeks of Israeli attacks in the Gaza Strip, the UN says. Sixty-seven people have died on the Israeli side, three of them civilians.
At least 50,000 people gathered in Cape Town, South Africa, organisers of the protest said, Thousands marched through central Paris, in defiance of a ban imposed by French authorities, about 2,000 people are estimated to have marched in Sydney and Melbourne, Australia. Other demonstrations were held in Spain, Greece, Jordan and Yemen on Friday.
Hannah Weisfeld, director of Yachad, a UK-based Jewish group which supports a two-state solution, said many British Jews backed its call for peace.
She told the BBC: “Unless we can find a way to bring those two parties together - Israelis and Palestinians - and create a long-term political solution in which both peoples have the safety, security and self-determination that they deserve, then we’re not going to get out of this current round of violence.”
Aleck
3448
What’s interesting to me is that many/most people seem to feel a need to take sides. Honestly, in this conflict there are no “good guys,” there is no “moral high ground.” Both sides have done/are doing horrific things. A pox on both their houses.
I completely understand why each side does the things it does – they make sense from a domestic perspective. Looking from the outside, neither side is doing anything that’s going to get the larger conflict closer to resolution.
The only side pushing for that, in practice, is Hamas.
And across the world marches have been held in support of those in Gaza:
Many of the people marching are anti-Semites, don’t kid yourself. You once more quote figures which minimise the loss of life simply because it’s Israeli - and excuses Hamas, whose terrorists are civilians.
Yachad hasn’t been marching.
Agreed, and that’s why US support for Israel should ramp down if they don’t change their ways. We provide a huge amount of military and economic aid. That aid needs to be tied to concrete achievable goals that will promote long term peace, like dismantling settlements. One of the big purposes of aid is to buy influence. We’ve paid a high price for decades–let’s get some use out of it.
Do you seriously believe that this would have any (positive) effect on the state sponsored terrorism that is targeted at them near constantly?
And what is the United States supposed to tell them? “Hey guys, we attacked Afghanistan and Iraq under questionable circumstances and destroyed much of these countries (including civilians), but you shouldn’t defend yourself against people who actually attack you constantly.”
Janster
3452
I kinda find it funny starlight, have you noticed the death toll on the recent war, it wasn’t very favorable of Hamas. You can talk all you want about Hamas being terrorists but they were the ones dying in bucketloads.
What people don’t usually notice, is that Gaza is constantly under Israeli oppression and blockade regardless of missiles fired or not, and your solution is for Hamas to go to bed and die?
I prefer terrorists to die for their cause rather than to kill civilians, so their members dying…well, why would I be concerned? You seem to think there’s something inherently noble in dying for a terrorist cause, from what I can tell.
Hamas does not recognise Israel. The solution is to recognise Israel and stop launching terror attacks. Then Israel could ease up on Gaza without simply empowering Hamas. Then we could have peace. (Then there would be a surge in the Israli left, and we could do something substantial against the ****ing settlers!)
You evidently prefer terror attacks.
(Not that I’d cry about a mass suicide note from Hamas, but IF they’re serious about stopping their terror attacks, I’d settle for that rather than demanding their heads. Northern Ireland shows the right approach there!)
Yes, I seriously believe that.
Yes, they’d ramp up the trade with India and China.
Janster
3456
You acknowledge the issue here, but in the same sentence you tell Hamas to do something I consider unwise…I think you need to see things a bit from the other side someday.
Again, the losses on Hamas side is really high compared to Israel, I’d say they are a bit better at this killing of civilians than Hamas.
Yes yes, Hamas’s terrorists are civilians. Why do you feel that excuses them?
And you think going for peace is unwise? Kay. And I’m sorry, I don’t really do well at thinking like a genocidal terrorist. I do fine seeing what Hamas are doing to the normal Palestinians in Gaza, but hey!
Janster
3458
Dude, Israel is holding ALL the cards, and are causing all the issues right now, Hamas, even if they decided today to disband and go home would change nothing, Palestinians would still fire rockets, they would still be locked in the prison called Gaza, and you’d be no closer to any peace worth mentioning…
Eventually you’d have a new group pop up to replace Hamas, and a new one and a new one, because that’s what happens in these situations.
Yes yes, it’s not like terrorists attacking is an issue. Oh wait, it is!
You appear to be arguing, there, than the correct choice for Israel is genocide.
Janster
3460
Yeah, it’s easy, if they are against us they must be terrorist, because in my little world, war should be played out according to some rule book, and really should just be a set piece thing. However it wasn’t long ago the US was willing to kill 100 % of the world population if shit hit the fan, if which 99.9999 would be those very same innocent civilians.
