Yada yada keep excusing terrorism.

And really, 100%? Do share. (Also, tip, not American)

You come off as seriously ignorant, but it’s nothing new, uninformed decisions usually follows rash people like Putin or Nethanyahu. I guess labeling makes the world simpler for you, go watch that Munich movie, it can give you some ideas of what a real spiral of violence looks like, and you can sit hugging your justification blanket all you want.

I don’t. I don’t justify terrorism. I don’t justify extremism.
I am a Labour Zionist, who supports a two-state solution as a result of that. I am a left winger who supports Peace Now. None of that…matters to you.

You see my views on peace, my demand for it, as ignorant? Well, that’s you. You are the one sitting there spouting the same sort of crap as your dear leaders, I detest them both. You are holding up the labels and spitting on them, I am looking at people’s actions, rather than blindly condemning people. I have told Timex and ShivaX that they’re being too harsh on the Palestinians of Gaza because I believe that.

Terrorist excusers like you…as you defend Hamas and their refusal to acknowledge Israel and hence their genocidal aims…you’re a sickness on society. I argue you should not be tolerated. And I’m done talking to your Hamas-loving, very possibly anti-Semetic backside. In fact, I’m going to ask Tom to ban you. Because enough is enough, and I’ll say something I’ll regret otherwise.

I normally ignore Starlight, but I think his original post deserves to be quoted. He’s since edited it down to be mellower, and he’ll probably continue the process or delete it altogether, as he has in the past. Here’s what he first wrote:

No, you frequently post about how you supposedly ignore me, but in fact you constantly post abusive posts towards me using that as an excuse. Which is simply trolling on your part. You gotta stink up every thread with the same old crap.

No surprise you’re defending Janster (and hold much the same views, it seems from this thread), and make up crap like “mellow”. You’re yellow, not mellow, running away from the concept of engaging with other views.

edit for effect: Magic Orwellian Marker knows magic. So, what did I change, Magic Orwellian Marker? Chop chop! Post the changes.

Starlight, I think everyone but you sees the irony of your original, hate filled post that asks for Janster to be banned on the grounds of hatefulness. I quoted it to reply directly to this thread, thought better of that approach, and reported it instead. Then I saw that you were backpedalling from parts of your rant, but since I had the first version saved in all its glory to quote in my PM, I put it back up for everyone to witness.

As for ignoring you, I’m done with that now. Your special brand of thread derailment deserves to be fought at every turn.

I really don’t think anything Hamas does in the end matters outside of Gaza. If they went Gandhi, Israel would just keep steamrolling them non-violently, if they do what they’re doing now- Israel will just bomb them to hell.

Nothing can be done unless the US stops supporting Israel, which is a generation away, and even that might not matter.

But you do in every post you make in this thread. You just can’t seem to understand it, which is not unusual for the extremist pro-Israeli view and that is exactly what we see all through the ultra-right Israeli government currently. Perspective lacking, to a 100% degree. Also a complete lack of empathy, which is also, sadly, now typical pro-Israeli ideology.

I’m pro-Israel, but what i can do is take a step back from my genetics and see what has been and is actually going on in the region. And sadly Israel by it’s specific actions of ensuring lots of civilian casualties is currently looking like the ‘bad guy’, because as Janster says, they currently hold all the cards, they have the vast military resources and control on the ground of the Palestinian people, they have a choice in how to act in this conflict, and have decided to be better ‘terrorists’ than Hamas (in effect, if you follow the meaning of the word ‘to create terror’), but that is exactly what radical and extreme behaviour brings to the table.

The figures speak the truth, and this seems to fly right over your head and the heads of the Israeli government and pro-Israeli supporter. What is needed is empathy. So here is an exercise, go outside and look at families doing their thing, kids in the park, mum and child at the shops, friends families relaxing at home, even look at your own if you have some around you. Now imagine an Israeli tank shell landing right in the middle of that. How would you feel? What do you think your response would be? Because that is exactly what is fueling the crisis in the region currently.

And don’t bring out the old ‘but they fire rockets at us’ cherry, those might as well be fire-works for all the actual military effectiveness they hold, again the numbers (on casualties) do not lie. Maybe that is my military experience talking a bit, but really the ‘threat’ Hamas pose to most people in Israel is tiny, they just don’t have the means to be effective (thank god). It really is a case of David and Goliath, only this time David is not Jewish and the ‘normal’ outcome is taking place, where the military more powerful side is doing all the killing, of women and children no less! Disgraceful.

Without any empathy towards the Palestinian situation Israel is locked into it’s current foolish and ultimately doomed path. This is not the middle ages anymore, you just can’t kill and displace people because they are ‘in the way’. There are consequences to those kind of actions, and one we are seeing percolate out into the civilised world is a growing anti-Jewish sentiment, which is terrible, and completely NOT what a young Israeli State needs.

Here is Hamas response to the level of military aggression Gaza is under:

‘Hamas threatens major escalation in rocket strikes on Israel’:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/09/gaza-hamas-threatens-escalation-rocket-strikes-israel

Which is just bloody tragic, but not unexpected, as Janster put it, what do you expect the Palestinians do, just lay down and die? They are fighting for their very survival, that is where Israel has pushed them by it’s extremist actions over decades. It’s like whole swathes of Jews have forgotten what happened to them when a huge powerful military power was oppressing them? Does no one remember what that feels like? to be under that kind of pressure for your life every single day? Do these discussions not take place around the dinner table anymore? We have to be better than this.

Pretty much, because the situation is not one where a simple change in policy on one side or the other can really address the underlying problems. On the tactical level, there are things that can change, like not firing rockets or sending suicide attackers into Israel and, from the other side, responding in less collaterally destructive ways and loosening the most egregious of the oppressive controls on the Palestinians. But the problem of “Israel” and “the Palestinians” would still remain.

This is a pretty unique situation. Sure, other people have struggled for what they believed was their rightful homeland against what they believed was an oppressive occupier. But the Palestinians are very different from the Viet Minh, or the Algerian National Liberation Front, or any number of other anti-colonial, anti-oppression movements. For one, they aren’t being occupied by a European state as a colony, but rather are being forced to share a plot of land with a group drawn from many different places that constituted itself as a practical nation only once it got to Palestine. Hence, there is no place to send the colonizers, as they see them, back to. The Israelis are quite right when they say, “go back where?,” as they were effectively pushed out of Europe, mostly, one way or another, particularly up to 1948. Another difference is that the Palestinians have not gone away, and are still living right where they started, albeit on only a portion of the land they claim. There is no where for them to go, either, not and still be Palestinian and not Jordanian, or Egyptian, or whatever, assuming anyone would have them. A fair number of Palestinians, quite a lot actually, refuse to drop their refugee status even when they can get access to many physical benefits of, say, Jordanian citizenship, because to do so would admit that the cause is lost. The refugee camps resist transitioning into anything else because each year when they have to re-certify or whatever with the UNRWA, they reaffirm their status as Palestinians.

One can argue, certainly, that after more than half a century it’s time to give up the ghost and move on, but one can also see how Palestinians can’t just walk away from what they see as a continuing injustice. One can also see how Israelis, most of whom have grown up now with Israel as a fact of life and as their home as well, might resist fundamental changes to their environment at the behest of people that, in the day to day nature of things, they experience often not as neighbors but as terrorists or other hostile actors. Of course, you could also argue that after half a century of something that is clearly, for everyone outside of Israel, not working, the Israelis might come to see that something has to change, but that, too, is a hard sell, given the core of vehemently hostile and frankly murderous rage that still exists in segments of the Palestinian community.

Gaza is a symptom, not a cause. Stopping the blockade and somehow getting an international monitoring force in there, to make sure rockets don’t come in with the fuel and food, and that concrete and steel is used to build schools and apartments and not tunnels, might or might not work (neither side trusts anyone else, HAMAS has little incentive to create an environment where people don’t feel angry enough to join their ranks, and Israel has serious issues about abandoning control to anyone), but even if it did, the basic problem would still remain. Now, it’d be a hell of a lot better I think for all concerned if something like that could evolve, even if it wasn’t the be-all and end-all of solutions, but let’s not fool ourselves into thinking there’s a solution to the overall problem that’s clear and simple.

Even if you believe Israel should never have been created and was built on theft from the get-go, can you seriously argue that all those Israelis who have been born there since–in a state the UN itself sanctioned, as a Jewish state specifically, for better or for worse–should have pull up stakes and go–where? Even if you believe the Palestinians have, overall, been their own worst enemies and have forced Israel into measures like the security fence and the Gaza blockade, can you seriously argue that the day to day oppression of average Palestinians is anything but unacceptable and unsustainable?

I’ve come to think that there are only two paths out of this. One is the two-state solution, but that would absolutely require a withdrawal from most of the West Bank, the cession of East Jerusalem to the PA, and an enormously complicated international effort to facilitate and guarantee security and access for all parties to communications and transportation outlets, and a long-term effort to manage water and population that would be an epic challenge. Demographics, too, are a challenge for the other path, the one-state solution, which few in Israel or Palestine seem to really want, as it doesn’t give either party the whole enchilada. How can you have a Jewish state with a majority Arab and Muslim population? How can you say it’s truly “Palestine” with a constitution that would effectively be heavily Western and full of guarantees for the people you have argued for a century or more have been stealing your land? But from an outside perspective, a unified, secular, constitutional state of Israel-Palestine, with power sharing and protections for each group, seems attractive, if still woefully impractical. Over time, the former Israelis would become a small minority and we’d have other problems I’m sure.

The third path, the continuation of the status quo, seems unsustainable ethically on all sides, but sadly, that doesn’t usually stop anyone. One reason Palestinians resort to violence is that, unlike most national liberation movements, this one doesn’t have a clear endgame, or a clear time frame. It seems like the Forever War, with a cause that’s too deeply rooted to give up and a foe too deeply entrenched to defeat. For the Israelis, their entire history has been built on a “never again” sort of appreciation of threats, and their government, security apparatus, and even general mindset to some degree are pretty conditioned to go from crisis to crisis; there really isn’t any precedent for anything else.

tl;dr, I have no idea how to solve any of this on a macro level. Perhaps all we can do is work on the micro stuff and try to keep the body count down.

This has always been my preferred approach, and the one I think the US should use the leverage of its economic and military aid to push hard for.

The third path, the continuation of the status quo, seems unsustainable ethically on all sides, but sadly, that doesn’t usually stop anyone. One reason Palestinians resort to violence is that, unlike most national liberation movements, this one doesn’t have a clear endgame, or a clear time frame. It seems like the Forever War, with a cause that’s too deeply rooted to give up and a foe too deeply entrenched to defeat. For the Israelis, their entire history has been built on a “never again” sort of appreciation of threats, and their government, security apparatus, and even general mindset to some degree are pretty conditioned to go from crisis to crisis; there really isn’t any precedent for anything else.

This is the easy way out for all parties, the default approach that will recur constantly until sufficient exterior (read: US) pressure is brought to bear.

Sooner of later its going to end up with them getting the same treatment South-Africa got…

You don’t read my posts, remember. Oh wait, you do, you’re a liar, no matter what else you say. Do I hate terrorist supporters like you? Yes, I do.

Said lies and spew are all the same, you’re simply trying to excuse supporting terrorism. I stand with civilised people against you.
You are not fighting thread derailment, you are fighting for Hamas. You want dead Jews. There’s no other rational explanation.

No, it’s the choice of Hamas supporters like you. It’s the death and war which suits you. That you want to bring the US in on the side of Hamas, to ensure that there will not be peace and that there will be continued conflict, is typical of your terrorist-loving backside, sitting safely in America and uttering hypocritical spew from your lying mouth.

How dare Jews never again be subject to the genocide you clearly want. Those of us who want peace are faced with warmongers like you, the fanatics, the enemies of civilisation.

[/quote]

No, it’s the choice of Hamas supporters like you. It’s the death and war which suits you. That you want to bring the US in on the side of Hamas, to ensure that there will not be peace and that there will be continued conflict, is typical of your terrorist-loving backside, sitting safely in America and uttering hypocritical spew from your lying mouth.

How dare Jews never again be subject to the genocide you clearly want.

Yes, a two state solution is clearly genocide. You’ve brilliantly blown my cover and revealed me for the Nazi I am. Bravo, Starlight.

Except, of course, you have not supported a two-state solution. You have supported Hamas, it’s calls, and it’s clear ally here, Janster. Loads of people have told him he was wrong, including people who usually think I’m smoking crack. But you screamed and leaped to defend him.

edit: Let’s see…Hamas charter…Hamas charter, ah yes; “strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine”

And I would never have called you a Nazi. For one, there are very very few Nazis any more (and those who are alive are octogenarians, which I don’t believe you are), just Neo-Nazis. Two, no evidence of such, although feel free to prove me wrong.

You’re simply trying to use Godwin’s Law, of course, to shut down criticism of your views. Gee, why might you be doing that?

(While at the same time saying you’re going to bully me, note, for daring to post in threads. Fully expecting you to stink up things like the Twitch.tv thread simply because you can.)

You don’t even understand this conflict Starlight, and you don’t understand that Hamas is a product of what Israel has done, its not some kind of evil genius thing with a plot to overthrow the world. They may have all kinds of madness attached to them, but they are by and far a product of the conflict. So when you want them destroyed, you really just want all Palestinians dead or expelled, its what your version of this end up with.

You got nothing, and it shows.

Ignorant and stupid as always, Starlight. Your reading comprehension skills are lower than anyone I’ve ever met. Each post I’ve made has been some variant of this one:

Janster, I read your posts as excusing Hamas from any culpability in this situation (or in their own situation). That’s an absurd proposition. Hamas is, in part, a product of the conflict – as is the current Israeli government. Both are culpable for their own actions (and poor judgement). You can’t rationally blame the Israeli government for Hamas and Hamas’ reactions without blaming Hamas for Israel and the Israeli government’s actions.

Upthread, folks are blaming Hamas for Israel’s actions. The argument goes that Hamas is culpable when Israel kills civilians because that killing is in retaliation for Hamas’ acts of terrorism. You seem to be arguing the mirror image – blaming Israel for Hamas’ acts of terrorism, saying that Hamas is a product of Israeli governmental actions and, as a result, not culpable.

Both of these perspectives are bullshit. While that logic might make sense when you’re talking about three year olds, you’re talking about organizations of adults. These are not children, and they are responsible for their own actions. Israel’s government is wholly culpable for the actions they have taken in the current conflict. Similarly, Hamas is wholly culpable for the acts of terrorism it has undertaken. You can attempt to go back to the post-WW2 era and blame Israel for the situation with the Palestinians, but there’s more than enough evidence even going back to that conflict that there is plenty of blame on both sides.

While I respect your right (and the right of others) to spout about one side having blame, the truth in this conflict is that it is intractable largely because neither side has been willing to step up to the plate and take responsibility for their own actions. There have been plenty of atrocities on both sides, and we’re long past the point where keeping score makes any sense at all. Unless both sides agree to break the cycle of violence, this conflict goes nowhere. I’m not sure the Palestinians even could break the cycle of violence if they wanted to – their own “leadership” is so fragmented between the various extremist groups that getting them all to move in the same direction is like herding cats. It’s also bad politics for the leadership on either side (and for any of the various Palestinian groups) to promote peace, as their own political constituents seem to rally around the flag once the bullets start flying.

Dave, isn’t that proposal very similar if not identical to proposals that have already been made in the past, which were rejected by the Palestinian leadership?

[QUOTE=Dave Markell;3614143]Ignorant and stupid as always, Starlight.[quote]

Yes, yes, you think that wanting peace is ignorant and stupid, I understand perfectly - your opposition to Peace Now’s views (which I hold) is notable of course. You have indeed demanded, as you claim I magically somehow can’t read;

  1. A anti-peace move designed to block negotiations, since both sides want adjustments to said borders.
  2. A token cash payment, yay. Oh yea, of course the new massive defences Israel would need against Hamas’s rockets alone would dwarf that…
  3. A “guarantee” which is not only worth precisely as much as the one given to the Ukraine, but deliberately and carefully does not protect against terrorism. Moreover, given the US didn’t intervene in Syria, and had the farcical chemical “red line” stuff, more like contempt these days. Heck, Turkey started airstrikes in favour of the Kurds before America against the IS! (And Turkey has a real problem with the Kurds)
  4. Fatah would be agree to something it already has on recognising Israel…and Hamas would not. Hence, Hamas would go right on attacking Israel.

This is not two-state, it’s how to get one state via two steps. Hamas would love it.
As you use the excuse of the settlers (who I oppose) as an excuse to fight peace.

Timex - No. Not quite. Fatah’s rejected various forms of 1969 with adjustments (which both sides want), and also major i.e. economic concessions by Israel were in there (as well as compensation for everyone displaced by Israel). Neither has there been the bluntly suggestion that Hamas would recognise Israel based on American negotiation - they’ve made it plain it’s completely off any table, even if we did talk to them. in fact, Fatah’s versions have been quite hostile to Hamas’s existence, which I can’t cry about.