If Hamas recognised Israel and stopped attacking, a lot of people in Israel would be pushing for that. Quite apart from the international response.
Right now it’s just impossible - for good reason - to talk about talking to Hamas. To talk to Fatah, yes, but not Hamas.
Aleck
3502
I don’t think anyone could force Israel to honor it’s agreements (or international law), but I suspect a great deal more influence would be brought to bear on Israel if/when Hamas acts like a reasonable partner in the peace process. Their current behavior plays right into the Israeli conservative line that “we can’t negotiate for peace!” which is likely an excuse covering up the reality that they don’t particularly want to negotiate for peace – after all, fear of the outside plays to their political base.
Janster
3503
If only the french resistance would have stopped shooting, then the Nazi-Germans would end their shooting of them and also may be possible MIGHT not at all start a dialogue about the occupied territories…
If only Hamas recognized Israel, fucking up ALL their claims to said occupied territory things will CERTAINLY end on some table where Israel will hold the most one sided peace talks since French surrender in 41. If ONLY some people in here would understand that they cannot EXPECT sanity and reasoning to come pouring out of refugee camps.
Hamas is a HUGE derailment and most of you have fallen into Israels well planned trap, making you just bloody useful tools, you should ring them for your paycheck.
Derailing the peace process actual plays into Hamas’ plan. I doubt they would have a real reason for existence without throwing fuel on the flames from time to time.
You keep trying to Godwin the thread, good luck with that.
Janster
3505
What fucking peace process, Israel has delivered NO peace plans whatsoever , they have only ever agreed to cease fire, Hamas has agreed to end hostilities on basis that Israel retreats to the '67 borders…
What the F! arg.
Timex
3506
Where did Hamas make such a statement?
The last statement from Hamas said that they wanted to destroy Israel, and also kill all Jews OUTSIDE of Israel.
Janster
3507
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative. People being shot and bombed, and brutally oppressed tend to say a lot of stuff, but here is a wiki link on the subject
Timex
3508
Yeah, no.
Please provide the actual statement that was made by Hamas where they agreed to end hostilities if Israel retreated to the '67 borders.
I’m not going to go dig for evidence to support your statements. You can support them yourself.
Janster
3509
Yeah well, it looks like they will settle for even less these days, however I saw their leader speak on TV a few weeks ago, if will take time to dig that up
Timex
3510
Just so you know, that peace initiative you just linked to?
Hamas totally rejected that, and at the time refused to even consider negotiations with Israel. When the peace initiative went into effect, they committed the Passover Massacre.
They committed the massacre THE SAME DAY.
So… Yeah. Derp.
Aleck
3511
Errr… That link indicates that Hamas is “deeply divided, with most factions rejecting the plan.” That… doesn’t count.
If you wanted to go the other way, click the main article link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process) and select “proposals” on the right hand side. You’ll see several Israeli backed proposals, all of which have been rejected by Hamas (and most of which are rejected by Fatah, too – and rightly so, given the absurdity of some of the proposals).
Janster, I think you may want to revisit some of the facts here. No one in their right mind will dispute that Israel has done some awful things to the Palestinians. The inverse is also true. As long as you hold the perspective that Hamas is a blameless party in the current disputes (or that they should be excused for committing atrocities), no one will take you seriously.
And, before the inevitable character assassination takes place, I’m hardly a supporter of Israel’s current government or their policies towards the Palestinians.
Assuming i’m remembering the right person speaking on CNN, isn’t this the complete asshole who was calling for an end to the blockade of Gaza at the same time he was discounting rocket attacks on Israel? If it is, i don’t know how any reasonable person could take someone seriously when they won’t even accept that getting rockets fired at your cities constantly is a situation any civilized country would not put up with.
Janster
3513
After a bit of reading up, I see only one thing, that Israel has never offered the Palestinians a complete withdraw to the 1967 borders, there was some talks, but they never got off the table, the other offers where mostly about demilitarization of Gaza which anyone understand cannot be accepted.
Again we’re stuck with the Hamas missiles, which IS a reaction to the Israeli occupation and blockade of Gaza, but its very beneficial for Israel that focus remains on the Hamas missiles, instead of the real issue. Also, while we are talking about civilized countries, how many would accept occupation and blockade…I sure as fuck remember the french having a say about that…and their resistance was costly on their own people, just as Hamas resistance is costly on themselves…
Which leads me to the last point, Hamas and Gaza today has almost zero offensive power, they are in all effect unable to inflict shit on Israel, and they are being bombed to bits at every turn, their society has NO chance of a recovery and this WILL lead into a slide into talibanism or any other shitty ism that we’ve seen elsewhere…and I really can’t blame them.
Last, is Hamas palatable? fuck no, they will have serious issues if a peace is established, but at the moment they aren’t even given the chance, and longer this goes on, the less fun they will get.
‘UK government to block arms exports to Israel if military action resumes’:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/12/british-arms-exports-israel-gaza-block-suspension
The British government will suspend some of its arms exports to Israel if hostilities resume in Gaza due to concerns that the British-made products could be used by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF).
The business department said a review of UK exports to Israel had identified the 12 licences for “components which could be part of equipment used by the Israel Defence Forces in Gaza”. They include equipment for military radar, combat aircraft and tanks.
Vince Cable, the business secretary, said: "We welcome the current ceasefire in Gaza and hope that it will lead to a peaceful resolution. However, the UK government has not been able to clarify if the export licence criteria are being met. In light of that uncertainty we have taken the decision to suspend these existing export licences in the event of a resumption of significant hostilities.
“No new licences of military equipment have been issued for use by the Israeli Defence Forces during the review period, and as a precautionary measure this approach will continue until hostilities cease.”
Better than a poke in the eye. It’s something. Off course America will most likely fill those orders, but morality has to start somewhere right?
Net result, Hamas is helped, and Israel will become far less likely to listen to Britain on anything. So…
Timex
3516
So, to Recap, you were full of shit and your statements regarding Hamas were just constructs of your imagination.
Hamas needs to show that its path to victory and independence is not only paved with rockets and bombs on civilian targets. That way the international community can really get behind them. I’ve always thought, however, that it has been the Americans which allow Israel to get away with illegal settlements. Why does the US veto security council resolutions denouncing the settlements?
Janster
3518
You are aware that they have been oppressed for QUITE a long time without any bombs or rockets are falling, and with this peace deal, it will happen again. . and STILL Israel will not do anything about their situation.
Timex, I’m not steady in all things Hamas, but I do know enough to say that Israel is being the offender here.
I think you’d do better to say that Israel’s government is “A” offender, not “THE” offender. They were THE offender in terms of occupation, but there is a collection of offenses that have been accruing over the years for various sides in the conflict (including prior to the occupation). Simply pointing at Israel’s government as the bad guy is silly.
These things are never easy to reconcile (IRA and Northern Ireland, South Africa and Apartheid, Wales and England (ok just kidding there!)), and there are never easy solutions, but they are possible to put behind IF people (us, politicians etc) step back from the hatred, and this goes both ways, always.
The solution in the region is not a Jewish free or Palestinian free region, they HAVE to exist side by side and get along, any other path is just ‘Hitler’.
And this is the big issue. Israel holds all the cards, the Palestinians are effectively under siege conditions with no way of actually forcing Israel to ease up, and it is becoming clear that most Israeli’s (and their backers) don’t seem to actually want peace when they have this vast military control on the region, and slowly through small military operations and sometimes legal ones, keep taking land from the Palestinians.
Have a look at this breakdown of recent events and think hard about it for a while:
‘Gaza conflict: The hundreds who lost their lives’:
These are mostly just people, mostly women and children (just like the ones we see around us day to day). They probably have little love for Israel because Israel has given them little to love. As the power holding all the keys the responsibility falls on the people of Israel to understand this kind of slaughter is no different to what they have historically had to deal with, and should not be the path they feel is the one to take. Heck as a part Jew i get this down to my bones. Hate and killing of innocents is full of dark side it is never a winning formula for anything constructive or long term.
