Janster
3561
I’m pretty sure they aren’t using much smart bombs, they are just using very accurate artillery of various types. I’ve seen them fire ‘dumb’ shots to warn off people, and that’s not done via plane or drone.
Just to clarify, Israel uses rocket artillerywith GPS tracking and guidance. They switched that over back in 2011, iirc. They’re “smart” shots (in quotes because that depends on the intelligence used to obtain the coordinates and then pull the proverbial trigger). It’s deadlier, far more accurate, and able to penetrate bunkers which conventional artillery can’t.
It is sucky as hell for both sides, and both sides do suffer the mental and physical effects of this long-running problem (i was in Israel in the late 80’s - kibbutzing). In Ireland it ultimately was the people, on both sides, that just got sick of the killing that paved the path to peace. Sadly i don’t see (or hear, in threads like this) any such consensus from ‘the people’ about the Israel/Palestine problem. Both are getting further drawn into a death spiral that ultimately threatens both of their existence.
‘Hamas kills 21 suspected informers’:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/22/hamas-executes-suspected-infomers-gaza
Hamas has turned its anger over Israel’s assassination of three military commanders against alleged collaborators in Gaza, killing 21 people in a little over 24 hours and warning that the “same punishment will be imposed soon on others”.
The suspected informers – including two women – were killed in three batches in a campaign codenamed “Strangling Necks”. Three were killed on Thursday, 11 at a disused police station early on Friday, and another seven shot dead in public outside a mosque in Gaza City shortly after noon prayers.
The conflict seemed likely to escalate further on Friday afternoon after a four-year-old Israeli child was killed when a mortar hit a car close to the Gaza border. It was the first civilian death in Israel since fighting resumed after the collapse of the latest temporary ceasefire earlier this week, and was expected to trigger a strong response from the Israeli military.
The boy is the fourth civilian and the first child to be killed in Israel since the war began. Sixty-four soldiers have also died. More than 500 children have been killed in Gaza, out of a total of more than 2,000 deaths.
To make peace you got to be brave, about 100% braver than making war (killing is easy).
Again, Zak, not what the polling says.
And the roadblock is Hamas and their refusal to acknowledge Israel. Ask an Arab country.
And maybe related to this kind of aspect of the problem:
‘Hamas declares support for Palestinian bid to join international criminal court’:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/hamas-back-palestinian-bid-international-criminal-court
Hamas has signed a pledge to back any Palestinian bid to join the international criminal court, a move which could expose both the Islamist group and Israel to war crimes investigations.
The decision revealed by two senior Hamas officials on Saturday would help a bid led by the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to join the court, a step that would transform his relations with Israel from tense to openly hostile and could also strain his ties with the United States.
Abbas has said he will not make any decision on a bid without the written backing of all Palestinian factions. Last month, he obtained such support from all factions in the Palestine Liberation Organisation.
The move by Hamas, which is not a PLO member, came after almost seven weeks of a cross-border war with Israel and several failed ceasefire efforts.
More than 2,090 Palestinians have been killed since fighting began on 8 July, including around 500 children, and about 100,000 Gazans have been left homeless, according to United Nations figures and Palestinian officials. Israel has lost 64 soldiers and four civilians, including a four-year-old boy killed by a mortar shell on Friday.
During the war, Gaza militants have fired more than 3,800 rockets and mortar shells at Israel, while Israel has launched about 5,000 air strikes at Gaza, the military said. Israel has said it has targeted sites linked to militants. UN and Palestinian officials say three-quarters of those killed in Gaza have been civilians.
That would be a good move to cool both sides destructive tendencies, and retro-actively bring some legal responsibility to the violence. If Israel is doing all it can to reduce civilian casualties, and Hamas is just a murdering terrorist organization, then i can’t see why Israel would be against such a move?
Because it’s another partisan attack. There’s no chance that Hamas’s leaders are going to surrender to the ICC, it’s simply another smokescreen for their actions.
Moreover, by blocking normal relations with Israel in many ways the hostility it would generate would probably kill the peace process entirely for a generation and more.
(It can be argued that every single Israeli is liable to arrest, for instance, since there’s conscription…the ICC is a terrible venue for this type of conflict)
That makes complete sense, a state sponsored terrorist organization that intentionally targets civilians and intentionally puts military assets in civilian locations is supporting war crimes investigations of Israel who is by all accounts not intentionally targeting civilians (unless you consider a terrorist a civilian like a couple people in this thread).
When will Al Qaeda be bringing the USA up for war crimes?
“one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter”
And never forget “Why?” - there is always a reason behind everything if you are brave and honest enough to look (and even if you don’t agree with what you find). Not supporting one side over the other here (as the history of this goes all the way back…to pre-roman times!), but more the importance of ‘trying’ to understand your ‘enemy’.
‘Gaza strikes destroy highrises’:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/24/gaza-strikes-destroy-highrises
Two multi-storey buildings in Gaza have been completely destroyed by Israeli air strikes in less than 24 hours, possibly signalling a new tactic in Israel’s military campaign.
A 12-storey apartment building in Gaza City was brought down on Saturday evening and a seven-floor office building in Rafah was razed early on Sunday.
The hits followed warnings by the Israel Defence Forces, in leaflets, text messages and automated phone calls. The text of a leaflet dropped from aircraft said: “The IDF intends to attack terrorists and terror infrastructure across the Gaza Strip … Israel is currently attacking, and will continue to attack, every area from which terror activities against Israel originate. Every house from which militant activity is carried out, will be targeted. For your own safety, prevent terrorists from utilising your property for terror agendas, and stay away from every site in which terrorist organisations are operating.”
It was signed “Beware – Israel Defence Forces”.
In the Gaza City strike a huge fireball followed by a black column of smoke rose into the sky after two Israeli missiles toppled the Zafer Tower, one in a group of several highrises in the area. Neighbouring buildings shook from the blasts.
The Israeli military said the missiles targeted a Hamas operations room in the building but did not explain why the entire tower with 44 apartments was brought down.
Gaza police said a warning missile had been fired five minutes earlier and some residents were able to rush out of the building in time. But 22 people were wounded, including 11 children and five women, according to Gaza hospital officials.
I don’t remember many stories of American freedom fighters almost exclusively targeting British civilians in England during the war for independence in the colonies.
You could make this argument if they were targeting military targets, but i fail to see how you can when they are focusing primarily on attacks on Israeli soft targets.
You can’t have a double standard where it is ok for Hamas to intentionally target civilians but not ok for Israel to unintentionally kill them with collateral damage due to the area where the fighting is taking place.
Hamas kidnaps teenagers and kills them. I’m finding it hard to classify that as “freedom fighting”, really.
ShivaX
3571
Generally speaking nations hate Israel and tend to side with the Palestinians, so I can understand why Israel wouldn’t want to sign on. I mean if you look at the world and who supports which side it’s practically- Israel: Us. Palestine: Everyone else (even if it’s just to annoy the US).
Most international organizations aren’t very well run or even handed. I mean look at nearly the entirety of the UN.
I think that’s stretching it. There are many nations which don’t “hate” Israel. But when Israel starts building settlements illegally it can expect some upsurge in negative sentiment. Hating Israel is really playing the whole anti-semite card, really.
Don’t confuse the really useful work of dozens of UN agencies with the UNGA and it’s committees, which is indeed pretty much a cess pit for getting anything worthwhile done.
Destarius - Right. The settlements (which I oppose) are really a separate problem to Gaza and Hamas. One which is far more tractable, if the Israeli government would get it’s head out it’s ass.
I would even go further to say that building the settlements really puts the US in a really tough position, as it did in the 2011 Security Council resolution when US was forced to use its veto. I certainly felt that as a result of that, US lost quite a bit of credibility as a mediator for any kind of long term peace plan.
Janster
3575
I think Israel should just keep on making USA look like idiots, it’s surely going to get them to the win.
I think Israel should keep on occupying and oppressing Gaza, I’m sure that will eventually get them to the win.
I think killing indiscriminately in Gaza does wonders for public opinion, eventually it’s going to be ALL win.
Thesper
3576
Could you clarify on this? I thought support for the war was extremely high in Israel. Has that changed recently?
I wasn’t sure what Starlight was meaning there either? Anyway i firmly believe Israel has a right to exist, and that area is their historical homeland, that is the heart of their culture and religion. They would get all plus votes from me on that aspect.
The bit i’m finding harder to parse is the method they choose to either try and keep what they have, or using military might, extend it beyond the original agreement. The whole persecution of the Palestinians is just way of my scale of comprehension, mostly because i have family (not alive now, my grandmother who escaped to the uk died a decade ago) that lived and died through that kind of treatment.
That is the hardest part for me, as us jews (even semi-ones) are usually smart, with a great self-deprecating humour, and ability to empathize with others, being where ‘we’ have been etc. All of which i see absent in most people that support the current Israeli strategy of seemingly ‘just slowly strangle the Palestinians against general world opinion’? I just don’t get it.
If anything it just feels ‘un-jewish’ in it’s ferocity and extremism? Like our specific recent history never happened?
Thesper
3578
What other sub-10 million person country has been involved in so many high intensity wars over the last 50 years, and has full conscription with a high chance of seeing combat? It’s to Israel’s credit it hasn’t gone full on Starship Troopers, but it’s also no surprise that their population is more comfortable with the use of force than those of most other countries are. For a modern nation, Israel’s recent history is ferocious and extreme.
Against Gaza, yes. But there’s still a strong majority for a two-state solution.
Today’s lesson in the ends justifying the means, which are then used toward questionable ends:
Israel is doing the right thing because Sherman did it to the South!
Have fun with that.
