Timex
3581
I don’t really think anything that Israel is doing really compares with Sherman’s march to the sea.
I didn’t find the parallel very convincing either. It read very much like a pro-Israel propaganda piece, although maybe that wasn’t its intention.
ShivaX
3583
So the Palestinians were traitors who left the Union? I bet that would be news to them.
Sorry, I should have spelled it out a little more. The author is a neoconservative. He’s attempting to justify a policy of total war. I also found it interesting that both Sherman and Israel officially “made an effort” to be selective about collateral damage and only striking “supporters” of the combatants to teach them a lesson. Whether they actually hold to that depends on which stories you believe.
Pod
3585
“An Insider’s Guide to the Most Important Story on Earth”
A former AP correspondent explains how and why reporters get Israel so wrong, and why it matters
Incase any of you are interested in read this person’s account of how the press reports the conflict, here’s a link.
Janster
3586
The article bothers me, since when did mainstream media take up pitch forks against Jews, it’s always been about Israel, just by playing that card, he’s made me lose interest.
Second, again, the problem is and always will be the occupation and suppression of Gaza, not the resistance to it.
Then there’s Hamas …again, how the fuck does he expect cooler heads to prevail if this continues!
Look at the conflict in Syria, how it spiraled from popular opposition against the old tyranny, and boy was it tyranny, to Jihad as the war got dirtier, and suddenly the shithead in power looks like the only sane guy in town because he KILLED all the fucking moderates.
So now there’s a ceasefire, and I hope it is lasting. Everyone is claiming victory (as is usually the case). My own take is that if Israel is going to lighten up on blockades and fishing restrictions, that’s great, but I’m just afraid that just builds up Hamas, and then Hamas are going to find it hard to control their fringe elements, who will end up firing rockets or killing Israelis, and then we would be back to square one.
ShivaX
3588
Which is almost always the problem. Too many nuts with too many rockets with no central control.
It’s a two way street, no one is all goodness and light in this situation, but yes i can’t see a real lasting peace ever taking place until BOTH sides are willing to put the use of violent force behind them. In other optimistic news, in the UK it seems both Jews and Muslims can get together:
‘British Jews and Muslims issue joint call for peace’:
Jewish and Muslim leaders in the UK have urged followers of their faiths to “export peace” to the Middle East. In an unprecedented joint statement, the Jewish Board of Deputies and Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) condemned Islamophobia and anti-Semitism.
In it they acknowledge the “deeply-held views” about the conflict between Israel and Palestinians. But reports suggest that the bodies disagreed over one line of the statement involving civilian deaths. The statement clearly describes the loss of civilian life as unacceptable for both religions.
Aleck
3590
Janster, I haven’t agreed with much you’ve said on this subject, but I think you’re right on about this article. Really, really lopsided point of view.
Grifman
3591
This is just so much hand waving because you don’t like what he’s saying. If it’s false, refute him. Just saying you disagree and don’t like it isn’t much of an argument.
Second, again, the problem is and always will be the occupation and suppression of Gaza, not the resistance to it.
When did Israel start reoccupying Gaza. I thought they pulled out years ago.
Some interesting news:
‘Israeli intelligence veterans refuse to serve in Palestinian territories’:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/12/israeli-intelligence-reservists-refuse-serve-palestinian-territories
Forty-three veterans of one of Israel’s most secretive military intelligence units – many of them still active reservists – have signed a public letter refusing to serve in operations involving the occupied Palestinian territories because of the widespread surveillance of innocent residents.
The signatories include officers, former instructors and senior NCOs from the country’s equivalent of America’s NSA or Britain’s GCHQ, known as Unit 8200 – or in Hebrew as Yehida Shmoneh-Matayim.
They allege that the “all-encompassing” intelligence the unit gathers on Palestinians – much of it concerning innocent people – is used for “political persecution” and to create divisions in Palestinian society.
The largest intelligence unit in the Israeli military, Unit 8200 intercepts electronic communications including email, phone calls and social media in addition to targeting military and diplomatic traffic.
The signatories say, however, that a large part of their work was unrelated to Israel’s security or defence, but appeared designed to perpetuate the occupation by “infiltrating” and “controlling” all aspects of Palestinian life.
Written in uncompromising language the letter states: “We, veterans of Unit 8200, reserve soldiers both past and present, declare that we refuse to take part in actions against Palestinians and refuse to continue serving as tools in deepening the military control over the Occupied Territories.”
They add: “The Palestinian population under military rule is completely exposed to espionage and surveillance by Israeli intelligence. It is used for political persecution and to create divisions within Palestinian society by recruiting collaborators and driving parts of Palestinian society against itself. In many cases, intelligence prevents defendants from receiving a fair trial in military courts, as the evidence against them is not revealed.”
Accompanying the letter – published in the Israeli media on Friday, and organised several months before the recent Gaza war – are a series of testimonies provided by the signatories to Yedioth Ahronoth and shared with the Guardian.
These kind of situations always remind me of the great comedy sketch by Mitchell & Webb, “are we the baddies?”
When you take part in military acts, especially those that target civilian populations you really need to think hard.
Beyond all the bullshit and (pathetic) male posturing about modern war, the real face of ‘heroism’:
‘A war within a war: The battles fought by Gaza’s medics’:
‘Palestinians submit ICC membership bid documents’:
The Palestinians have submitted the documents necessary to apply to join the International Criminal Court, the last stage in their bid for membership.
Joining the organisation could see the Palestinians pursue Israel on war crimes charges. Israel and the US, neither of whom are ICC members, have opposed the move.
It comes days after the UN Security Council rejected a resolution demanding an end to the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories by late 2017. Delivering the application to the UN headquarters, the Palestinian envoy to the UN, Riyad Mansour, said it was a “significant step”.
“It is an option that we are seeking in order to seek justice for all the victims that have been killed by Israel, the occupying power,” he said.
It obviously cuts both ways, so i suspect that things are just so bad they are prepared for that eventuality? And why are the USA and Israel not a member of the ICC? That seems weird no?
So they can not be bound by it? An American soldier (for example) prosecuted by an international organism might not fly very well will the American public. You know, that socialists conspiring to incarcerate a war hero stuff… And then they would have to extradite him. Go figure.
Basically, because they can get by ignoring international law due to their economic, diplomatic and military power. So why would they submit?
Nor that it wouldn’t be a good thing, but the US military and secret services behavior abroad is not precisely spotless.
Alstein
3596
USA isn’t part of it because they refuse to extradite their own citizens to it. Israel for the same reason. They both fundamentally distrust the court to be fair (a number of African nations believe the same, with cause)
Not particularly. As Juan pointed out, while there are a fair number of advantages to an ICC-type of body, there are a fair number of disadvantages too.
While all of the alleged disadvantages to the US signing are debatable, it really comes down to this: governments must act in their national interests, and while the preeminent world power surrendering some of its advantages to the ICC might be just and fair, it is almost certainly not in its national interest.
Timex
3598
Also, because in the US we have laws which are created by representatives we elect, while other countries, and by extension the ICC, have laws which do not represent the consciousness of the US voting public.
Zak, as I discussed in the other thread, this basically hands the Israeli right an election they were losing. Sigh.
Juan - And to me, that argues that we shouldn’t then extradite people to America, if they refuse to abide by international norms. Under any circumstances. Israel too, sure.
Of course, if there’s evidence, they can hand it over and get people prosecuted here.
Aleck
3600
The US isn’t a member of the ICC because they don’t want US soldiers/politicians to be subject to the ICC. This goes all the way back to at least the 90s, when both Bush I and Clinton opposed joining.
Israel isn’t a member of the ICC because there are half a dozen nations which would immediately file charges against Israel and specific Israeli leaders for alleged atrocities.
As you noted, both of these stances cut both ways.
