3721

Or he’s exquisitely trolling the lot of you. I honestly can’t tell.

3722

It is quite epic, if that’s the case.

3723

I am lost right now. I seem to remember talking about how I believe that the ICoJ so that Cheney could stand trial for torture, and hopefully burn in hell. Timex was arguing that we shouldnt give away sovereign power, and than this discussion went crazy, than Israel came up briefly and than more craziness. So, where are we now?

3724

I don’t know, I started with “Why is everyone saying they don’t understand this?” then I posted “I don’t understand this either” then Starlight went apeshit and it appears somehow my original statement has been parsed as an anti-non American, Timex sympathiser.

3725

Aleck - Ding ding ding!
I mean, seriously? I’ve even SAID I was.

lego - Eh, the discussion will restart when a few people get over talking to each other. But they’re still determined to sling muck for now, as they pretend their little circle-jerk isn’t one.

3726

I didn’t follow as it all spiraled OT pretty quick, and i don’t have time to follow all that. But in defense of Starlight, he (and his previous DawnFalcon handle) is often piled on, so i suspect he has developed (or had from the start) a very low threshold for that kind of thing? As for why this happens, well it is either from posting stuff that upsets people, or it is from needing to focus the debate around oneself over the topic at hand.

Timex has an issue with America’s relationship with other nations outside of it’s own interests, and i looks like the stuff about the ICC triggered all that which brought out Starlights anti-american side? Then it all went south (is that an expression from the American civil war?).

In relation to the topic at hand i firmly believe a moderate hand ruling Israeli interests would give better long term results for everyone. I’ve yet to see proof to dissuade my opinion.

3727

The Israelis get away with too many things, but the Palestinians can’t get their shit together either, with loose cannons all over the place. It’s not an easy solve.

edit: You can’t expect an Israeli government to just take the rockets and yet make the concessions for peace. That government won’t last the term. They will look like they caved, and then because of the loose cannons in Hamas or whatever other splinter groups there are in Palestine, there’s no guarantee that the rockets won’t keep coming.

I quite suspect some other regional Arab power also quite enjoys stirring the shit pot in Israel once in a while, just because. You just need to goad some disgruntled militants a little and give them a few rockets.

3728

Anti-exceptionalism.

And yes, Zak, but the problem is that Fatah are not helping during this election cycle, rather than only Hamas pushing. There’s been a 6-seat swing to the right in the latest Israeli polls, which really does confirm my doom and gloom over this ><

3729

As America is gearing up for a Republican President, the bad feeling with the Democrats carries on:

‘Obama to keep Netanyahu at arm’s length during controversial US trip’:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/22/obama-declines-meet-netanyahu-during-march-visit-white-house

The Israeli prime minister is also not the only foreign ally to have sided with Republicans over foreign policy in recent days.

Former Evil British leader Tony Blair recently spoke to a Republican leadership retreat in Pennsylvania, urging a stronger western response to the rise of Islamic extremism.

3730

In the same way Bush and Blair fabricated intel (against the wishes of the security services) in the run up to war with Iraq, it seems Netanyahu has been doing the same re Iran and it’s nuclear program:

‘Leaked cables show Netanyahu’s Iran bomb claim contradicted by Mossad’:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/23/leaked-spy-cables-netanyahu-iran-bomb-mossad

Binyamin Netanyahu’s dramatic declaration to world leaders in 2012 that Iran was about a year away from making a nuclear bomb was contradicted by his own secret service, according to a top-secret Mossad document.

It is part of a cache of hundreds of dossiers, files and cables from the world’s major intelligence services – one of the biggest spy leaks in recent times.

Brandishing a cartoon of a bomb with a red line to illustrate his point, the Israeli prime minister warned the UN in New York that Iran would be able to build nuclear weapons the following year and called for action to halt the process.

But in a secret report shared with South Africa a few weeks later, Israel’s intelligence agency concluded that Iran was “not performing the activity necessary to produce weapons”. The report highlights the gulf between the public claims and rhetoric of top Israeli politicians and the assessments of Israel’s military and intelligence establishment.

3731

I so wish we’ll see the end of him after the upcoming election. In my opinion he was the most destructive and incompetent PM Israel ever had. Maybe this and the recent discoveries on him (or his wife) greedily scamming the PM budget for personal uses will finally do it.

But who am I kidding :(

3732

It’s far too close to call. The Zionist Union is generally outpolling Likud, but some of their potential allies (Shas, ironically, thanks to internal issues and Meretz) are dropping slightly. Kulunu is stepping up criticism of Likud’s economic policies, on the other hand.

(The ZU is a Labour/Hatnuah/Green list…Israeli political parties and lists come and go with pretty much blinding speed)

3733

An interesting read on how extremism creates a less safe future for everyone:

‘Former Mossad head urges Israeli voters to oust Binyamin Netanyahu’:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/27/mossad-binyamin-netanyahu-meir-dagan-israel

A former head of Israel’s foreign intelligence service Mossad is urging voters to oust Binyamin Netanyahu in the next general election, accusing the prime minister of endangering the country’s security with his stance on the Iranian nuclear programme.

Meir Dagan, a vocal critic of Netanyahu’s Iran policy since stepping down as Mossad chief four years ago, is to be a keynote speaker at a rally in Tel Aviv next weekend, calling on the public to turf the prime minister out of office on 17 March.

Netanyahu was due to fly to Washington on Friday.

In a trenchant critique of Netanyahu’s leadership, delivered in a long interview in Israel’s biggest-selling newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth, Dagan said the prime minister’s policies were “destructive to the future and security of Israel”.

Netanyahu’s planned speech has brought the already uncomfortable state of relations with the Obama administration to a new low amid suspicion that the speech – at the invitation of Republican house speaker John Boehner – was designed to enhance the Israeli prime minister’s electoral prospects.

Netanyahu has said he believes that his speech is necessary to strengthen opposition to a potential nuclear deal with Iran being negotiated by the US and key allies.

The intervention by Dagan – who ended his tenure as the head of Mossad in 2011 – is doubly significant because he shares the prime minister’s view over the risk posed by a nuclear Iran and is regarded as generally hawkish on defence and security matters.

Netanyahu has made security and the Iranian nuclear programme – and the US-led negotiations to contain it – his key election issue.

Recent days have also seen anonymous criticism of Netanyahu’s speech from serving intelligence officers as well as from former diplomats and political figures in Israel, including Isaac Herzog, the leader of the opposition.

Saying that he was aware that Israel was already “paying a high price” over the confrontation with the Obama administration – albeit in ways he could not disclose – Dagan said: “The person causing the most strategic harm to Israel on the Iranian issue is the prime minister.

“As someone who has served Israel in various security capacities for 45 years, including during the country’s most difficult hours, I feel that we are now at a critical point regarding our existence and our security.

“Our standing in the world is not brilliant right now. The question of Israel’s legitimacy is up for debate. We should not erode our relations with our most important friend. Certainly not in public, certainly not by becoming involved in its domestic politics. This is not proper behaviour for a prime minister.”

Insisting he held no personal animus towards Netanyahu, who had helped him get a liver transplant, he said: “I have no personal issue with the prime minister, his wife, his spending and the way he conducts himself. I’m talking about the country he leads.

3734

Netanyahu is rapidly becoming Israel’s Blair.

Fun fact - If the leaders of Israel’s parties stick to what they said about who they won’t go into Government with during the debate they had last week, there is NO possible majority coalition.

3735

I have a very general sort of question. Why are Israel and Iran enemies? Is it an attempt by Israel to curry some favour with the Sunni world that surrounds them?

3736

All the countries in that region basically hate Israel and use it as a scapegoat to redirect attention away from how they are shitty to their own people. If their population is mad at Israel, they’re not mad at their own governments making their lives crappy.

3737

Because Iran’s Islamic leadership has a problem with Israel existing.

3738

Isn’t that a common thread among most people in the Islamic world surrounding Israel, though? Among some Sunni governments, maybe not at the moment, but among Sunnis themselves, existential hatred of Israel (and often Jewish people) seems pervasive.

Iran may be led by an uncivilized government (although I think the government is more realist and rational, and less idealistic and fanatic than many people think), but the attitudes of the Iranian people themselves seem very different.

3739

Most Iranians have no issue with Israel, there’s really not much of the wider public anti-Israel and anti-Semitic views which you find in some Arab countries. I have a secular Iranian housemate, and he’s a great guy (He’s also not welcome back in Iran, I note), who has no problem with Israel or Jews at all.

It’s also not as long-standing as other regional issues - Israel had ties, including military ones, to the Shah, and even later on supplied Iran during the Iran-Iraq war, for instance. It’s only since 1989 that things have really soured.

3740

Yeah, I agree, that’s why I think it’s strange that the countries are so hostile to one another. Iran’s government is already embroiled in conflicts with the Sunni world–I don’t get why they’d nurture Israel as an enemy rather than an ally (or a neutral).