4401

Jesus, how long has this been going on? Isn’t this like the fourth or fifth election in just a few years?

4402

This is one of the potential pitfalls of parliamentarian systems; neverending instability. See Italy.

4403

The beauty here seems to be that if Netanyahu wins, he stays prime minister; and, if he loses, he also stays prime minister.

4404

Time is a flat circle.

4405

For most governments that would be a big story.

For Israel, it’s Tuesday.

4406

So Bibi just gets to keep being boss, right?

4407

That seems to be the case, but nobody can really explain why that is.

4408

Same shit, different day.

4409

So apparently the Israeli government was working to get Trump elected.

So not only do they act like Fascists towards minorities in their own country, they also work to elect them abroad. I am sickened by Bibi and the people that support the Republican side. They totally forgot they were the victims of the same kind of thing, and now they turn around and do it to others.

While this article is older, there are now more messages between Roger Stone and additional evidence from the raid on Giuliani that makes this more clear (but I can’t find the article since it went up a week ago).

4410

Bibi is such a scumbag and Trump was an opportunity to get an easy manipulated strongman loving rube into power so I just assumed he doing whenever he could to help Trump.

4411

Agree that Netanyahu is a putz but don’t mistake his party and his views for all of Israel. The political system is pretty wonky and there’s a gap between the general views of many Israelis and the stuff Netanyahu’s gang of thieves spews out. Not to exonerate Israel as a political entity from its (in my view) many misdeeds, but Israel /= Netanyahu.

This is really divisive stuff in the US Jewish community, as you might imagine. People brought up to think reverently and proudly of Israel as an idea/ideal have trouble facing the reality sometimes. When we talk about it, it goes far beyond just discussing some random country’s policies; it strikes right at the heart of a huge part of Jewish identity. One could argue we did this to ourselves, allowing the idea of Israel to occupy such a huge part of our headspace over the years, of course, and losing sight of Israel as a metaphor or aspiration. Much like how at Pesach we celebrate deliverance from slavery both physical and spiritual, Israel as an idea has its material and its metaphysical aspects. Once it became a nation state it became really hard to keep things straight.

4412

Which is why Human Rights Watch calls Israel an apartheid state. I’m sure not all Israelis support what Bibi and his thugs do, but they sure as hell keep electing them.

4413

I’ve heard the ratio is near 50/50 like it is here in the U.S. which is why I tried to call out the Republican side of Israel and not Israel as a whole. I just don’t understand how those in power there can be so cruel after what their relatives went through. Sectioning off Palestinians and taking their land/houses and forcing them into overcrowded slums is EXACTLY what Germany did to them before the greater Holocaust. I mean, how can they not see that?

4414

Have you met humans? :D

Not that I think Israel is in any way an easy fix, it’s perfectly natural for both sides there to hate each other, it’s not going to change until both sides feel the “war” is a worse deal than peace.

4415

Admittedly, religion clouds the issue severely. The original Zionists, whether one chooses to paint them as European colonizers or enterprising refugees or whatever, were mostly secular, often with socialist leanings. Over time, and I suppose inevitably, the number of Israelis who viewed their position primarily through the lens of Torah grew, and when you combine this sort of “God willed it” stubbornness with the material and practical advantages of occupation and exclusion, it makes for positions that are very hard to move. The religious angle is why hardliners don’t see the equivalence with other oppressive regimes; in their eyes, Israel really is a chosen people who can pretty much do as they will.

For more secular Israelis who support the status quo, it seems the logic is more along the lines of the usual human ability to see everyone else’s actions as bad, while not seeing their own in the same light.

4416

About 700000 jewish immigrants to Israel - a very substantial proportion of the aliyah, especially in the early years of Israel (48-51) - came from the middle east, where they were the victims of state-sanctioned antisemitism and prejudice, being punished for the actions fo Israel because they were jews.

And you call them “enterprising refugees”

4417

Not at all; I’m trying to find the proper words to capture how some people view the early Zionists. I’m well acquainted with the history of immigration to Israel, though I admit my thoughts are often conflicted. Those who fled persecution–wherever it happened–deserve sympathy and understanding. At the same time, I cannot ignore the price that the Palestinians paid for the sanctuary secured by deserving Jews. It’s a no-win situation.

4418

Looks like things are going to hell right now.

4419

Jared Kushner already achieved peace in the middle east, I dunno what you guys are talking about.

4420

“People who criticize Israel aren’t anti-semitic…”

“…ah shit.”