So, what, no one can criticize Israeli policies or actions? Yes, a lot of people who criticize Israel are scumbag anti-Semites. A lot of people who criticize the state of Israel are Jews, too, and not the anti-Semitic self-hating type, either. It’s entirely possible to be fully appreciative of Israel, love it even, and be severely critical of what it does and how far off the path of the righteous it has strayed in the minds of many.
ShivaX
4422
There is plenty to criticize Israel for.
Equating the nation of Israel with all Jews everywhere is silly.
So, if you steer clear of that, and believe that Israel (the nation) has been travelling the road of apartheid, would that be seen as anti-Semitic?
Bebe and his like would call it that. For political reasons. To his ilk, you aren’t allowed to criticize Israel for any reason.
I remember being hopeful a long time ago, back before Yitzhak Rabin was murdered, and since then, not so much, and I’m not sure there’s any solution that will leave everyone feeling good about it.
Zero chance of everyone feeling good. I would settle for everyone feeling there was equal give.
Timex
4427
Maybe don’t literally quote Hitler.
ShivaX
4428
Most people don’t. Some Pakistani actress isn’t really representative of anything.
The problem is that saying Israel isn’t perfect is automatically conflated with these people.
If I say Hitler was bad, it doesn’t mean I think Stalin is good because he also thought Hitler was bad.
I think people are misinterpreting what Timex was saying. Just a hunch.
I think you’re right. At first reading it sounds like he’s disproving the statement that People who criticize Israel aren’t necessarily anti-semitic. By giving an example of someone who is being anti-semitic, but also criticizes Israel. Which seems logically inconsistent. But then you realize, he doesn’t have the word necessarily in there. So what he’s disproving is a statement that I’ve heard no one make.
ShivaX
4431
I assume as much which is why I’m not jumping down his throat.
That said, if I didn’t know him better there isn’t really any other way to interpret what he’s posted.
Aceris
4432
A lot of people criticise Israel without ever being described as antisemitic except by a tiny fringe of crazy people and Israeli nationalists.
A lot of people criticise Israel in a way that leads to them being described as antisemitic by large numbers of jews and others.
A lot of the time the fact the former occurs is used to protect the people involved in the latter.
I assume that is all @Timex meant.
No, although I would point out that arab Israelis enjoy more rights than arabs in basically any other middle east state. I think focussing on the evils of the occupation rather than the racial element is better founded.
Well, yeah, I was referring to your commentary, not that execrable Tweet you posted. Your comment was unclear; I see you were focusing it on that particular Tweet, and I definitely agree with you on that. I was taking your comment though as a generally applicable remark; sorry for the misapprehension.
Timex
4434
Ya, she’s just an example of what not to do.
Also, she is a verified Twitter account with over a million followers, so that’s not great.
Yeah, I realized that it could be interpreted that way, my phrasing was poor. Obviously criticizing Israel doesn’t make you a Nazi.
But then you get people like that idiot, who criticize Israel using explicit Nazi stuff, and it makes it harder to point out how disagreeing with Israeli policy isn’t borne from antisemitism.
Those that became Israeli Citizens, perhaps. But many people did not, in protest to the occupation. Where does that leave those people? At times, without electricity, without running water, with their trade embargoed. With their lands taken away from them.
Even those that become Citizens, many live in Arab Majority Towns and Cities that are ranked the poorest in the nation, according to a brief Wiki search. Heck, the hits keep coming if you read the wiki page. Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia
The education seemed to be separated, even going so far as to have athe University Education being taught in English and Hebrew despite Hebrew not being required for Arab Schools.
The healthcare system seems to benefit Jewish people far more than Arab Israelis, with Arabs having some of the highest baby mortality rates in the world, but Israeli, seemingly not bothering to fund it.
Now, there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel, and things are improving for the Arabs somewhat, but I can’t help but get a whole “Separate but Equal” vibe from Israel.
And of course, this ignores the people living in the West Bank, or Gaza Strip, who aren’t Israeli Citizens. But, I guess they are just shit out of luck.
ShivaX
4436
The upside is that she has, last I looked, one Tweet. The one you posted is actually deleted.
I assume it’s something they just do in Pakistan. Post a Tweet then delete it, because Pakistan or something.
I’m under the impression that the whole separate but equal is pretty non negotiable because of the whole Jewish state part of the equation.
If I remember right, Democratic, Jewish, One state. Pick two.
Aceris
4438
It looks like much of the difference in infant mortality can be explained by congenital defects, at least in part due to consanguinous marriages, so blaming that on the state of israel is problematic.
Hebrew education is readily accessible to arab students, and Hebrew fleuncy runs at 60% in the arab population of Israel (and is higher amongst the young of course).
It’s a fair point that arab israelis face significant discrimination (as do many minorities in many states). But “Apartheid” is a higher bar, at least in the common usage.
And this is why I think it’s better to concentrate on the occupation - it removes the racial element and the possible double standard. The occupation is self-evidently intolerable.
Even if this was the case, the fact that Israel dedicates almost no money to the situation shows that it is an issue that the Government does not care about.
As for Appartheid, that is an reference to not only the situation of Citizens, but the non citizens that live in Gaza or the West Bank. I feel like that reaches the levels of Appartheid very easily.
Aceris
4440
So you are arguing that the Israeli state has a moral obligation to invest significant resources in interfering in Arab marriage customs.
Let’s just say, I am not surprised that they do not do this.
