@timex they couldn’t move out all their equipment. Some stuff is simply too heavy or immobile inside a building. You also have to consider the statement this sends to reporters. “You’re not off limits”.

I could see any military force being happy with removing the press from an area, even for good reasons.

Even if the Israeli Military only acts against military targets, mistakes can and do happen. Unintended casualties can occur. It having press to report on those mistakes, or only having opposition press report on it gives them plausible deniability. It gives them some cover.

That is assuming that the Israeli Military isn’t doing anything shady or military personal aren’t taken extreme actions.

Keep in mind, the UN is warning both sides that they might be committing War Crimes, which makes is doubly important to have the Press there.

In the end, I do think the Israeli Military statement is suspect, especially since the AP is reporting that, in the 15 years it’s been in the building, the have had no evidence of Hamas operating in the building. You would think Journalists in the area would have a pretty good idea of that sort of thing, since it is news worthy.

In the end, this sets a terrible example of what Israeli thinks is fair game.

Certainly they couldn’t move all of their stuff out, but again, those press organizations are absolutely still reporting.

Israel knows that any warning from the UN is meaningless, because the US will always veto any resolution against them.

It’s also meaningless against Hamas, since they routinely commit war crimes.

I mean, part of this that’s funny, is that we are debating whether Israel had good rationale for attacking a target… While the Palestinians are literally just firing rockets directly into civilian population centers, with the explicit goal of killing civilians.

You are conflating all Palestinians with Hamas.

Yeah, that doesn’t really hold up as an excuse at this point. Hell, before Abbas cancelled the elections a few weeks ago, Hamas was slated to win a plurality of their seats in Parliament. Hamas isn’t some isolated criminal group, is a major facet of their elected government.

The Palestinians absolutely have responsibility for the rockets fired on Israeli population centers.

Otherwise, you should let the Israelis say, “hey, some Israelis don’t support this stuff, so it’s unfair to criticize Israel for anything.”

While this is true collectively, I also wouldn’t want people laying Trump’s crimes and acts at my feet, not the Israeli government’s at the feet of every Israeli.

Yeah, that’s why it was important that we threw him out of power, and hopefully will hold him criminally liable.

It wasn’t like we could have just shrugged and said, “oh man, that whacky trump!”

Indeed, but we still put him there in the first place; the nation does have that to answer for, but not every individual person.

I am aware the UN won’t do anything about it, but having it documented will only embolden the critics of the Israeli Regime even more. US protection only lasts as long as the public has an appetite for it after all. Which is probably going to hold strong for a while longer, but you never know what the straw is that breaks that particular camel’s back.

I disagree. When talking about things done by states and state-like actors talk about them in that way. Hamas. Fatah. The Israeli government. Likud. The IDF.

It doesn’t change the facts, but it’s one tiny thing we can do to try and oppose the toxic revanchism on both sides.

It’d be like if the GOP started shooting rockets into Canada, and then the US government did nothing to stop it.

Pretty sure the Canadians would still think America was attacking them.

Here’s how the Bush administration reacted in 2002 to Israel attack on an apartment building.

Yeah, but the key difference between that action and this one, is that this attack killed zero civilians, because the IDF warned people ahead of time.

This is true. There are, however, much broader, and much more difficult, questions that no one wants to engage with, probably because there are no answers that will make anyone happy.

Those questions surround the very concept of “legal” or “just” war, and the rules we create to manage conflict. At the most direct, worm’s-eye level, there is no just or unjust killing, it’s all killing. Dead is dead. Long ago, though, people from a wide variety of cultures recognized that without some sort of accepted limits, things would get way out of hand. So traditions, agreements, social norms, rules, laws, whatever were hashed out–between relatively similar societies.

Later, in some societies including Christian Europe, the idea of a “just war,” or a conflict allowed or perhaps even sanctioned by God emerged, along with some often elaborate and elegant theological and philosophical arguments. Of course, given that each combatant would always make the argument that their side was just, you needed a neutral third-party with the knowledge to adjudicate these things, and the authority to make it stick. While the Church claimed that authority, it was too often a party to the very disputes it sought to arbitrate (and when non-Christians were involved, it was perhaps the worst arbiter, though no one in Europe really cared, given that by then Europe = Christian and everyone else could literally go to Hell).

The colonial and imperial ages saw warfare increasingly shift from constant fighting among European states to constant fighting between European states and non-Europeans whose lands and resources the Europeans coveted. The same pattern we see today emerged often immediately, as regards “just” wars. Europeans universally declared violence by the colonized against Europeans unjust, criminal, terroristic, etc. while massacring the locals with Maxim guns was deemed good Christian chastisement of the heathen as it were. As the threat of intra-European war still loomed–as WWI would make manifest–a need still existed to codify how advanced nations might duke it out, so as to guard against the unlikely but unpleasant possibility of a white army treating another white army the way they treated the Sudanese or Hottentots or Chinese. Thus the succession of agreements that would over the decades into the 20th century become the so-called Geneva Conventions and related things.

These agreements were still rooted mostly in the colonial mindset. Every colonial power needed a way to insure that no colonized peoples could be mistaken for a legitimate army or government, and that Europeans maintained a monopoly on the use of force. As they knew that was utterly impossible, they went for the next best thing, defining “legitimate” war as all the things that an irregular, guerilla, anti-colonial, or otherwise non-industrial, non-advanced (and, um, not white) people might have to resort to to inflict damage on and sway the policies of a colonizing, modern (and, um, white) power.

Ever since then, any sort of asymmetrical warfare has tossed up the same problem. The definitions of “just” and allowed violence are so rooted in one particular type of warfare, and one particular type of warfighting apparatus, that it is virtually impossible for any military force other than those from advanced industrialized societies to adhere to them and retain any semblance of effectiveness. Almost all fighting today is asymmetric, and many conflicts involve struggles against Western or Western-affiliated states. Yet virtually every act of war that is feasible for the weaker sides, and which might actually have a chance to effect the political change that war is intended to effect, is outlawed by the so-called laws of war.

What might have worked when advanced industrial society fought its doppelganger (and even then I’d argue hypocrisy was more the norm too, with might always making right) simply does not work in asymmetrical post-modern warfare.

Note I am not saying it is “good” to bomb hospitals, set up shop using civilians as shields, blow up grocery stores, fire rockets at apartments, whatever. A country like Israel facing such attacks, at the basic, ground level, is going to have to respond to them. And certainly as an individual I find the notion of such attacks repulsive. Talking at a higher level, though, getting beyond the adrenaline-fueled, go-go-go! tactical chaos, what we have is a fundamental inequity and a self-perpetuating problem. We are in effect saying, “no one can fight any war, or use violence in any way, unless they can do so according to the rules we wrote, and which only an advanced, modern military can adhere to, much less win with.” And of course as we fudge our own rules constantly, we being the West in general as no one else really squawks much about this stuff, our moral authority is less than compelling.

The original concept of the just war was a high-level moral and religious idea, fundamentally built around the ultimate goal of the conflict. All things being equal, the side with the “best,” or most ethically or morally supported cause, was the “just” side. We have reduced that to a very cynical means test that lets highly advanced military powers do anything they want and labels virtually everything else a war crime. In the process, we skipped over the whole interrogation of the causes and goals of war, instead focusing only and solely on the minutia of which bomb went where and whether the victims wore a specific uniform or not.

tl;dr, the real question is not “should Israel have bombed this apartment building,” or even “should Hamas have lobbed rockets at Israel.” The real question is, “which side has the best argument for violence in the first place?” And that discussion has to take into account not only the low-level (response to immediate provocation) but the high level (creating the conditions that generate the provocations).

Using support for Palestinians as a cover for gross antisemitism is tight.

Hey look, timex found some rando video to share with us, very persuasive.

Do you think that there is some sort of attempt at persuasion?

Maybe it’s just, as suggested in the text of my post, a general disgust at people who express such overtly antisemitic views, in the guise of supporting Palestinians.

Oh wait, do you think that such things should be ignored, because they are just “some randos”? Do we do that with other Nazis?

Maybe you can explain yourself a bit more, clear things up.

If Israel stopped all the Apartheid level shit they’ve been doing as the video I posted above outlines, and gave back all the land they illegally took over the past 15 years, I’d bet all the money I have that the rocket attacks would stop and wouldn’t ever happen again.

Israel has had the power to stop the violence and fix this problem all along. Instead they only throw fire on the situation and accelerate it.

@Timex, what would you do if foreign entities were taking the farmland and houses of everyone around you, and all legal attempts to get them to stop is laughed away. Would you sit idly by while you lose everything?

The problem is entirely Israel’s fabrication. Palestinians have no legal recourse to protect themselves, and no majority political backing in the government circles that matter. To Israel, taking anything they want from Palestinians is literally like taking candy from a baby. And with no morality or ethics in the ruling body, that’s exactly what they do.