Yeah.

Step 1) Israelis vote out Likud
Step 2) New government deescalates and manages to weaken Hamas somehow
Step 3) ???
Step 4) Peace.

International opinion can absolutely help with step 1), but the perception that western opinion is driven by cherry picked one-sided views of the conflict - from either perspective - help contribute to a fortress Israel mentality that can only benefit Likud. (pro Israel bias makes some Israelis think they dont need to care about world opinion, pro Palestinian bias makes some Israelis feel persecuted and threatened.)

Have they? The current government certainly seems to have little genuine interest. But it doesn’t seem permanently off the table, in the same way that Hamas’ policy of genocide doesn’t mean that there’s no possibility of a two state solution from the Palestinian side.

Except given the insistence of a right of return and the attitudes of the palestinians it seems to me that would ineviably lead to the persecution of jews - jews were driven out of basically every other arab majority state very early in this conflict - after 60 more years of bad blood why would things be any better now?

The difference is that South Africa was a Majority Black, and that isn’t the case in Israel (at least not the ones that are actual citizens). That is a distinction that you can’t ignore if you want to compare the two nations.

By the way, which member of the Supreme court was Arab?

I’m looking through the list, and I see this guy, George Karra - Wikipedia, who is, a Christian Arab, which I think is rather distinct from the groups being oppressed by the Israeli Regime, don’t you think?

In any case, I think if the Deputy Mayor of Tel Aviv thinks that the situation is equivalent to Apartheid, maybe he knows something I don’t.

All I can think of is how Trump would have handled this. Hard line Israeli support. Warmongering. Maybe sending US troops in?

Rhetorically he’d play it to the hilt, but Trump did seem to balk at serious military entanglements.

Making the point that while Apartheid was based on race, however you’d describe what’s going on in Israel it isn’t a system of oppression based on that.

He is a politician, he might be saying something a politician would as a way to garner support (or as an entertainer getting attention). Just like the recent appearances by the Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem saying it isn’t apartheid is something a politician would say. I don’t think either one is speaking facts.

Since many Jews are Arab, arguing that the issue of apartheid is about race is a bit silly don’t you think? Apartheid does describe South African before the transition, where the segregation is based on race, but the term has evolved to define almost any kind of government-sponsored discrimination based on ethnicity or caste or where they live. Especially when it is applied to places that aren’t South Africa.

The fact that people in Gaza or West Bank cannot freely move around Israel have limited access to running electricity, and generally live in ghetto conditions can easily be seen as a form of appartheid. That these people don’t want to be part of the nation that conquered them is rather self-explanatory.

Heck, Israel passed a law that if you are from the West Bank or Gaza, and you marry someone with Israeli Nationality, you have to wait a year before you can apply for Israeli Citizenship. This requirement is only for people living in Gaza or the West Bank. When you are faced with such examples of the odious laws that the Israeli Regime put in place, of course, peace is a long way off because this government has shown no interest in bridging the divide, and offer only hostility and suspicion to the very people that they forced to live in ghetto-like conditions, to begin with.

It’s somewhat semantic, but in Israel, non Jewish members of August can participate fully in August, right? My understanding of apartheid in south Africa is that was definitely not the case for Black members of society.

Blank check. Wouldn’t have to do anything else.

I do not want to wade into what is a hugely complex issue, fraught with emotion and tension; I doubt the Internet or a gaming message board is going to result in anything moving the needle for anyone on this. I do think though that it is useful to see if recontextualizing these issues a bit could at least give everyone something different to think about, or a different way to think about what we already are pondering.

Much of the discussion about what is going on now mimics discussions you could have read (albeit in other formats/media of course) about anti-colonial struggles in the post-WWII era. Substitute “France” for “Israel” and the “FLN” for “Hamas,” say, and then look at what we are saying about both sides. No, the analogy is not exact–never is–but it’s close enough to be worth considering.

I am guessing that the vast majority of people on this board would condemn colonialism, and looking backwards towards the decolonization era would not be supporting French, Dutch, Portuguese, British, Belgian, or other nations’ efforts to retain control of their African, Asian, or other colonies. It’s also much easier to accept the methods of the FLN, the Viet Minh, or whomever from a remove of many decades. Yet I feel a nagging sense that if we were having this discussion about one of those conflicts, back in the day, many of us would be making the same arguments in favor of the colonizers as we are making in favor of the Israelis today, and condemning the anti-colonial groups for terrorism and war crimes while largely tolerating the reactions of the European powers.

This is not to say I think there is an exact corollary, with Israel being a stand-in for, say, the Portuguese in Mozambique or the white government in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. The situation is far more complex than those type of things, and the position of Israel in world history is rather unique IMO. It is to say, though, or at least to suggest, that the question we should be asking, ultimately, is whether the Palestinian situation is equivalent to that of the indigenous peoples in colonized lands of the past, and whether the state of Israel occupies a position equivalent to that of the Europeans who did that colonizing.

If it is, we have a problem, because what Hamas and others are doing is arguably equivalent to what anti-colonial movements did in the past, actions that resulted in independence and international recognition, and which are today largely viewed as messy, and regretful, but necessary.

If we decide that Israel’s actions vis a vis the Palestinians are in a different category entirely, and that the Palestinians do not have the same standing as it were as something like the FLN had, we also have a problem, because any framing of the situation this way runs the risk of dismissing what most of the world has agreed are the legitimate aims of the Palestinians, and risks legitimizing what most of the world has gone on record as being unacceptable behavior on the part of Israel.

In the anti-colonial era, the Cold War shaped a lot of Western thinking; support for freedom movements was often totally undercut by fears that these movements, which were often Marxist at least in theory, were shills for the USSR. Never mind of course that the West drove most of them into the communists’ arms through refusal to support decolonization in order to bribe European countries into NATO and the like.

Today, the admittedly unique position of Israel in the historical memory of the West, and in the lived experience of American Jews in particular, also shapes how we view things. I just wonder if it is that much different than how we wound up supporting colonizers over independence movements in the past. On some level it feels different, but then again, I grew up in a culture idolizing and idealizing Israel. And like most people, the idea of attacking civilians and the sort of political violence perpetrated by groups like Hamas disgusts me. I am also, however, disgusted by what I’ve seen, both in the news and during my brief visit to Israel a while back, of the way Israel treats Palestinians. It’s easy to justify the checkpoints, the walls, the armed monitoring and patrols, and all of that when you limit yourself to one point of view. Watching Israeli soldiers at those checkpoints, navigating around those walls, interacting with “settlers,” and visiting refugee camps in Jordan, among other things, gives you a vastly different perspective.

tl;dr, I have no answer, only the sense that this is all like some really bad version of a Shakespeare tragedy, minus the good soliloquys but with the endgame where everyone dies.

This is an excellent view of the context, but I think the comparison to other “anti-colonial movements” is missing one key point: all the others simply wanted sovereign self-government. Hamas’ stated goal is not sovereign self-government, but the destruction of the state of Israel. Hamas (and terrorist-designated predecessors) have repeatedly turned down offers of peace.

And when the party you’re negotiating with shows no signs of ever actually negotiating in good faith about a solution you end up with Hamas.

As I noted, the comparison is not exact. That being said, anti-colonial struggles embraced a range of ideologies. In the case of Algeria, for instance, thinkers like Fanon and Sartre pretty much advocated killing Europeans because they were European, as part of the struggle as they saw it to wrest control of identity from the colonizers.

To make it more complicated, while it is correct in one sense to say anti-colonial movements wanted to expel the foreign power and to establish an indigenous sovereign state, rather than to eradicate, say, the nation of France, the distinction is not as clear-cut as it seems. What anti-colonial movements wanted was the destruction of the colonized state’s power over them. In the case of a traditional colonial situation, this usually meant expelling the colonizers, who would presumably go back where they belonged, that is, their own country.

In the Israel-Palestine situation, this gets really tricky. Where do the Israelis, the alleged colonizers if one is framing this conflict in a colonial framework, go, if they are forced to leave the allegedly colonized areas? In this case, the supposed colonizing power is effectively co-located with the supposed colonized people. If Hamas or other groups essentially view the establishment of Israel as itself an act of colonization, inevitably any demand for the end of colonial power will mean a demand for the end of the State of Israel as a political, national entity. That of course is unacceptable to not just the Israelis but many other people and nations.

In many ways, one of the great tragedies here is that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians have anywhere else to go. Rather than figure out how to collaborate in shaping a society for both groups, though, each in their own way has apparently decided on an all or nothing approach.

The deals were awful. Every negotiation basically entered into what the PA is now- a security auxiliary of the Israeli state with no real independence or sovereignty. Every time a Palestinian state was proposed, it never controlled its borders, airspace, defense policy, immigration policy, or any meaningful bit of land like parts of Jerusalem. In the grand scheme of things, accepting the Oslo accords in their entirety would simply result in the current situation- a PA entirely dependent on foreign aid basically forced into acting as an internal security force to assist the IDF.

In this ‘cooperative’ or ‘peaceful’ system, the West Bank gets chopped up by settlements and barriers between the settlements and the IDF controls all border crossings. Hamas’ intifada mk 3 approach is considered a failure, but can it really be considered much worse than what’s happening in the West Bank? Israel holds all the cards, and what they want goes, better not to rubber stamp what they want.

It’s fine to say that, but guess what? You’re gonna get a worse deal now. And tomorrow you’re gonna get one that’s even worse.

And as long as the Palestinians can’t control terrorists in their own populations, or worse, literally elect those terrorists to public office… then Israel can’t possibly be expected to have normal relations with them. Because the Palestinians will just commit terrorist acts against Israel, and Israel has a responsibility to its people to do everything they can to prevent that.

I don’t buy the argument that Israel can’t negotiate with Hamas because Hamas is fighting them. That’s like saying, “Saudi Arabia and Yemen can’t start negotiating peace unless first they end their war”. Every peace negotiation occurs in the context of fighting.

I also don’t agree that Palestinians will never get a better deal than what they were offered. That depends on leadership in Israel, Palestine, and the US.

At this point it is clear that any semblance of Palestinian self-determination in the occupied territories is a fiction; this wasn’t always the case, it is the result of a process deliberately implemented by the Netanyahu government and there doesn’t seem to be a path back. Israel controls everything meaningful; Hamas exists only because Likud needs a foil. Israel has a responsibility to all the people under its control, but the Israeli government has chosen to deprive and terrorize a segment of them.

I just don’t see how this statement can be taken seriously.

Hamas exists because the Iranians fund them as a terrorist group, and the Palestinians embrace them and elect them to office.

The reason that Israel cannot negotiate with Hamas, is because Hamas has taken, as a core pillar of its raison d’etre, the complete destruction of Israel. It’s in their charter.

You can’t compromise with someone who requires your complete destruction.

Of course you can. You can negotiate with anyone, even those who seek to destroy you utterly. That’s how negotiations have worked for ages. And the US conducted numerous successful negotiations with the USSR, even though Soviet dogma was that communism would ultimately “bury” our way of life. It was just a matter of convincing Soviet pragmatists of the benefits of delaying our inevitable destruction.

In this case, one of the negotiation goals might be updating the charter. In fact, Hamas has already taken steps towards this.

May have more to do with Hamas’s calls for a Jewish genocide in it’s charter.

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’ (Article 7)

In the end, PA security cooperation with Israel has gotten what? More land annexations, more settlement, more evictions. The only reason it still exists is because the PA would be broke without its sponsors and its sponsors will not allow any policy other than utterly submissive security cooperation.

Actually accepting any of these deals does nothing to prevent Israel from doing whatever it wants. If the IDF wants to flatten something, they just do it. These deals offered no prevention of Israeli incursions or attacks on Palestine, just hope in the good faith of Israeli governments.

Have you looked at the Likud charter, by the way?