Have you looked at the Likud charter, by the way?
Do they call for the killing of all Arabs? Can’t find that.
I see something on the borders, but nothing on changing their calls for killing jews.
Panzeh
4663
Just mere ethnic cleansing. No big deal, really.
What’s the language of their charter you are referring to?
Panzeh
4665
That there should be no Palestinian state on the West Bank, while also suggesting that Israel remain a Jewish State and encourage settlement in the whole of “Israel”, including what it calls “Judea and Samaria”. This is, in effect, an incitement to ethnic cleansing.
According to this link it looks like they aren’t ruling out a Palestinian state.
Okay but are they changing that specific language in their charter? I can’t see an updated version with it removed.
Thank you for sharing! Great to see they removed that. Although recent statements from senior Hamas leaders still makes me skeptical:
“People of Jerusalem, we want you to cut off the heads of the Jews with knives. With your hand, cut their artery from here,” Fathi Hammad, Hamas Political Bureau member and former interior minister, says in the clip, which was translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute. “A knife costs five shekels [about $1.50]. Buy a knife, sharpen it, put it there, and just cut off [their heads]. It costs just five shekels. With those five shekels, you will humiliate the Jewish state,” he said. “The Jews have spread corruption and acted with arrogance, and their moment of reckoning has come. The moment of destruction at your hands has arrived,” Hammad added.
Not seeing a whole lot of talk about “Zionists” in that statement, but I am seeing a lot of “kill the Jews”.
Timex
4670
From the new Hamas document:
The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.
19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.
20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.
They’re pretty explicitly denying the right of Israel to exist, at all.
Panzeh
4671
Could also bring up the Yamina platform if you like. It’s a fairly common position in Israel that Palestinians should be dispossessed of areas that Israel has already cleansed and also the Jordan Valley and Jerusalem.
The charter doesn’t recognize the existence of Israel as a political entity, but that’s got nothing to do with genocide, which is a straw man. Also, the acceptance of the 1967 borders for a sovereign Palestinian state implicitly endorses a two-state solution.
See my post above Timex for how they talk about killing Jews today. And if they wanted to endorse a two state solution, they could just say so, the fact that they don’t should be telling.
magnet
4674
Well, Israel has as much a “right to exist” from the Palestinian perspective as the United States has a “right to exist” from the Cherokee perspective.
But even if they don’t believe that others have a “right” to be there, obviously they are there anyway. That doesn’t preclude negotiations between Palestinians and Israel, just it didn’t preclude negotiations between Native Americans and the US.
Timex
4675
But they aren’t really accepting it. They’re saying they’ll take that as some kind of starting point, but they are ALSO saying that Israel itself is explicitly illegal, and that they’ll never accept it. You can’t just take that one sentence about the 1967 borders in a vacuum, without the rest of the document’s statements about Israel (referred to as the “Zionist Project”).
magnet
4676
Argentina still says the UK’s claim on the Falklands is illegal. Greek Cyprus still says the Turkish occupation is illegal. Spain still has doubts about the legality of the UKs claim on Gibraltar.
Nevertheless, they were all willing to negotiate, and they are all currently at peace. Peace does not require acknowledging anyone’s legal rights, it simply requires renouncing violence in pursuit of justice.
I mean, everyone here can name a public figure or two who we think did something illegal, right? But we’re not going to start killing people over it.
Timex
4677
That’s true, but I don’t think Hamas is really capable of renouncing violence.
They are funded by Iran, with the goal of disrupting the region. Iran doesn’t care about the Palestinians… They only care about fucking with Israel. If Hamas were to accept peace with Israel, then Iran won’t support them anymore.
A key difference is Argentina, Greek Cyprus, and Spain are not backing up their objections with violence. Hamas is.
Sharpe
4679
I’ve just completely given up on the Israel/Palestine issue - I see no evidence of a meaningful commitment to a realistic and peaceful solution by either Israel OR Palestine, and the thing is, to make peace work, we’d need commitment from BOTH. Instead we have neither.
In particular, I am DONE with this BS of “oh the other side does all this horrible crap which justifies my side’s horrible crap!”. Look, both sides are acting badly. Very very badly. We can argue all decade about which side is worse (IMO, early in the conflict, Palestine was worse, but in recent decades Israel was worse) but that whole issue is moot. NEITHER side is showing any meaningful commitment to a realistic peace, and the bad acts of one side don’t justify the bad acts of the other side.
I’m just done with the issue. I don’t want the US involved; I don’t want a goddamn cent of US money going to either side, and I for sure don’t want any US blood being spilled for this violent, hateful, idiocy.
And I’m especially done with “OH if only we could get Israel to be nice!” or “OH if only we could get Hamas to be nice!” Fuck all that; it ain’t happening.
magnet
4680
Well, there used to be violence in a couple of those places. My point is that violence can be set aside even if objections to “legality” remain.
If that’s the main obstacle, then a solution is in sight. Because whatever Iran is paying for war, the US can offer triple for peace.
Same approach for Israel. No peace, no US support.
