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4821
Yeah, as much as I despair at what is going on in Israel, even as a Jew I don’t feel like it’s anyone else’s responsibility to fix it.
We don’t even have a functional government of our own at the moment, but sure, let’s tackle Israeli–Palestinian relations. What could possibly go wrong?
At least stop giving Israel carte blanche, but as long as 911 / terrorism is pretty much synonymous with being Muslim in enough of the population, I dunno how that’ll go.
Just a terribly sad story that I don’t think has any good finale.
The least we could do is stop funding it. Israel’s GDP is half a trillion dollars, they can buy their own weapons. And if we’re doing it to have influence over them, then use the influence.
If the money was for the purpose of influence, we’re very much not getting our monies worth.
This is so true. I gave up trying to bring up any issues around Israel or Israeli policy at the synagogue when I was spending more time there. Bringing up topics related to anything going on in Israel/Palestine was generally discouraged because folks were afraid it would spark excessively intense disagreement. Which, really, I felt was necessary and useful, but I didn’t want to push against the consensus in that environment really. But as long as American Jews continue to allow a portion of the community to label any criticism of Israel as off the table, we won’t be able to have any real influence on anything.
Yeah, I’d agree. The US can play a role by (one can hope) dialing back its unconditional support of Israel, but that’s about it. We needed to be extremely clear to the rest of the world that we would guarantee Israel’s survival back when it was actually under direct threat from its neighbors. Despite the ongoing positioning of Iran as an existential threat, Israel is fully capable of taking care of its own security needs at this point. It can stand some robust critique I think.
Yeah, that would be the worst case scenario to be fair. Israel going it alone, annexing the West Bank and bombing the hell out of Iran.
I do think the US has the leverage to make them listen without forcing that kind of ultimatum. The hard part is finding someone who is willing to take the confrontation.
I’m purely suggesting diplomacy. You don’t have to take ownership of the conflict (although you more or less already have) you do have to take ownership of your relationship with this country, which plays a major part in that conflict.
The only thing that has managed to put a meaningful stop to illegal settlement in the past has been decisive pressure from the US.
How does that play out? I think it would destroy a segment of domestic support for any politician who threatens to withdraw aid as their opposing side would by default take the other side. They would then potentially lose the next election and someone who was voicing full-throated support of the Israeli government’s @$$holish actions would take their place. I mean, this is a country where a (allegedly, but c’mon, folks) moronic, traitorous criminal got 46.8% of the popular vote just because he suited up for Team Red in 2020.
That’s what I would consider counter-productive.
If you’re just saying informally talking about it, well, I can tell you such conversations happen on a routine basis. Opinions and desires are shared and noted or ignored as seen fit.
It seems we are doomed not only to stand by while Israel does bad things, but to actually pay them to do those bad things. Wonderful!
Or at least it’s not easy to solve the world’s problems, especially outside our own borders.
…therefore we must pay to fund the difficult problems.
That’s the point: not that we can solve the problem, but that we don’t have to fund it.
It’s a difficult call to make just simply due to the domestic side, IMHO. If we were only considering the ramifications in Israel, I would whole-heartedly agree to pull the plug. But if that’s the tipping point domestically, that’s potentially losing more judges, progressive laws, existing securities for the downtrodden in the US to make what amounts to a theatrical statement, as Israel has the means to defend themselves already.
The problem is, there is really nothing Israel could do that would lose them the support of the US right. So if we can’t risk empowering the US right, then we’re on the hook for tacit support of, well, anything. There must be some line we won’t cross. The question is whether we are past that line or not.
Yeah, it’s obviously uncharted territory, but I think the alternative is increasingly hideous as well. I get that we have to be real, but at some point you also have to stand for something.
Moving our Israeli embassies to Jerusalem is like moving our Russian embassies to Donbas. Aside from giving away some of the leverage we have over Israel, it brings us dangerously close to accepting wars of aggression.
Could you guys explain to me the math and mechanics that leads any US candidate that pushes Israel to lose an election? Is there absolutely no way to swing it?
Are US jews really that conservative?
I guess I never properly looked into it, but I always felt like the diaspora kinda swung liberal. I thought we had a lot of peaceniks in Europe. I should look into it more!
TBF, I think the real strength of unfaltering support for Israel in the US comes from evangelical Christians, not American Jews.
Great question. A lot of US Jews are liberal, but Israel holds a special significance among some Christians and that segment probably outnumbers Jews in the US. You see, this segment of Christians believe they need to ally themselves with Israel due to their beliefs in the second-coming (IANAChristian, so anyone please feel free to correct me).
Even with that taken into account, the next issue comes from not only losing the liberals who want to support Israel unconditionally due to either outdated concepts or foolish thinking but also driving more non-voters to the polls against whomever crosses that line.
If US politics and our electorate were remotely rational, it wouldn’t be an issue. But sadly we’re largely a bunch of knee-jerking reactionists walking around with blinders on.
Ah man, evangelicals are so weird.
Do any of those guys vote democrat though?
Some, but definitely not the majority. Unfortunately, elections are super close, however. Lose an extra percent or two and the Devil incarnate takes office.
CraigM
4840
No, this is definitely it. Evangelical beliefs lead them to full support of Israel, and their aggressive behavior more likely to drive long term conflict in the region is a feature, not a bug.
See there is a strong current of thought re: the Second Coming of Jesus and a literal Rapture, that the end days will be triggered by an invasion of Israel from the north, and therefore if you can support Israel, and their behavior increases the likelihood of conflict and invasion, you can therefore speed along the end of days and the second coming.
