Sharpe
4861
Before we can even start talking about ending the occupation IMO, Israel has to end the settlement expansions. Full stop. A lot of folks in the US don’t understand this. We are not just talking about an ongoing occupation but also an active and ongoing EXPANSION of Israeli settlements, both in terms of construction as well as population growth.
There’s just no way to ask the Palestinians to try to set up stable self rule when the Israelis continue expanding their population and territory in the disputed lands.
Without a complete halt on settlements including new settlement and all forms of expansion, there is no way forward.
Once that occurs, then the progress-in-planned-stages type of plan can be considered.
I don’t think a lot of Americans understand that this is not a passive or stable situation, but rather a situation where every year, the number of Israeli settlers in lands claimed by the Palestinians increases by at least thousands, and often tens of thousands. Every year.
Sharpe
4862
One more thing: I do think we need to view Gaza and the West Bank as two separate issues, with different paths towards possible solutions. Most of what I’ve been discussing is relevant to the West Bank, not Gaza.
I don’t really have a good idea how to deal with Gaza. I’ll admit it. It’s fucked. It’s a mess. I got no answer there.
I don’t disagree that they should stop expanding settlements, but this is wildly insufficient as a starter. They don’t just need to stop expanding settlements. They need to disband them, to return the land — and the access to water — that they’ve appropriated from the existing Palestinian people. Any deal along the lines of okay, we will stop expanding our settlements, now you have to do X is an absolute non-starter. Israel has already broken that sort of deal multiple times, haven’t they? And even if they hadn’t, the remaining territory isn’t a viable basis for a national entity. You can’t run a country where there are hostile, armed encampments of people squatting on all the resources, backed by a foreign occupying power that is willing to kill you and everyone who looks like you to protect them.
Sharpe
4864
It’s a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition.
Biden is probably busy right now, but this feels like it’s gonna blow up.
marxeil
4868
I feel like this thread’s make should be changed to be more like the one about Turkey.
It is important to keep acknowledging that the Netanyahu government /= Israelis. While the far right does have significant popular support, it does not by any stretch have total or anywhere near total support. A lot of Israelis are as upset about the direction Israel is moving as we are.
I wonder how many American Jews are making aliyah to Israel these days? Almost seems like more Israelis are leaving for the US or Europe than are itching to move there.
I think this is fair, but on the other hand Netanyahu and his policies have managed to hold sway for decades. A lot of Israelis must support him and them.
Yep, I mean a lot of Israeli’s don’t agree is rather hard to square with Netanyahu is the longest serving PM in history.
jpinard
4872
I’ve been wondering the same thing. I wouldn’t doubt some far-right Jews are actually moving to Israel however.
CraigM
4873
Partly because some fuckery going on with coalition forming after Bibi lost several elections. I couldn’t fully understand the nuances, but somehow he was able to form the coalition government despite coming second.
Yeah, but the thing is even putting aside that he’s back yet again, he was the longest serving PM even before this latest zombie act of rising from the dead to extend still further his reign as the longest serving PM in histoy:
There’s no running away from this fact for Israel.
The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin has to considered be the most successful regime change strike in history, doesn’t it?
The weirdness of parliamentary systems is on full display I think in Israel. Netanyahu’s success may not indicate a popular plurality in favor of him, though I agree there’s obviously a fair degree of alignment with some of the broad arcs of his approach, like settlements and a hard line in general. So no, the Israeli polity doesn’t get a free pass, but neither does the US of course. Most folks here didn’t vote for Trump, but we continue to have a government largely locked down by Trumpists and worse.
Sadly, yes, and a fitting symbol of the self-inflicted tragedy of Israel.
Sharpe
4877
A lot of the issue with the Israeli government is their screwed up version of a parliamentary system but I also think there’s just a huge issue over the last couple of decades: there is just no credible alternative locus of government that has a plan or political will to pursue real peace. Like not even close. This is tied to the Rabin assassination but also the Israeli electorate appears to me to have abandoned any kind of meaningful alternative in any kind of numbers to make it possible, much less viable.
For that I do think the Israeli electorate bears some responsibility. I think Israeli has a bad system, and a bad government, AND an electorate that is making bad decisions. The electorate is presented with poor choices, true, but the lack of any kind of even snowflake-in-hell type alternative matrix of parties to pursue a real peace (based on the staged process to a 2 state solution that we’ve talked about) is just really disheartening.
Any kind of 2 state solution seems completely and utterly dead to me. But… now what? Nobody has an answer for that and to me that’s profoundly unserious and problematic. On a government level, AND on an electorate level. I mean what do Israeli voters think is going to happen?
I’m long past any kind of support for Israeli, or for Palestine for that matter, other than very minimal prevention-of-crime-against-humanity type aid.
Also I do NOT consider Israeli to be a “good ally” of the US. They have been an incredibly shitty ally in the big picture. Their continued expansion of settlements is just one item violating any kind of reasonable behavior of an ally. They are in a hole, and THEY KEEP DIGGING. They are creating a lot of negatives for the US and THEY KEEPING DOING IT! That’s not the behavior of an ally.
(I don’t feel the US has any true and reliable allies in the region. I’m in favor of a big picture “disengage and contain” type strategy with the Middle East generally. Let em figure their own shit out. I’m tired of dealing with extremists and violent states of many different types. Honestly, I’m at the “Fuck 'Em” stage. Fuck 'Em twice.)
Disengage and contain. Some aid to prevent severe crime against humanity and mass human suffering, but that’s it. I’m done.
Plus strict party list proportional representation.
Yeah the whole system is wonky.
abrandt
4880
It certainly is frustrating because Israel should be better and the US should be less supportive of them not being that. Outside of Israel it certainly is depressing to look at the prospects for the Middle East. Jordan strikes me as the only other country in the region who would have much of a shot of being a country we could/should engage with. A strong/stable monarchy may be the only viable path to building towards an open and sane government form. But that also seems entirely dependent on monarchs that don’t suck and are interested in taking steps to liberalize. Not sure that’s in the cards for Jordan but from my surface understanding it at least seems plausible that the path could exist. Most other countries in the area just don’t seem like they have a good path from where they are, which is really unfortunate.
