4941

I think that it’s a bit strong to say there’s “no” historical basis. It seems like at least some historians believe there is some historical basis for the events described in the Exodus. Some of there “no archeological evidence” likely stems from the fact that a nomadic people would naturally leave little archeological evidence.

This talks a bit about some of the historical parallels that may have fed into the Exodus mythology.

4942

Other than we’re not talking about the same thing here you might have a point.

4943

Weren’t we talking about Israel removing judicial review from their supreme court? Saying they couldn’t declare laws unconstitutional?

4944

Partially I guess we are, the part though that caught my attention is gov’t control over appointments. Which would just turn the judiciary into flunkies for Netanyahu.

As for judicial review in the U.S., Marbury vs Madison is self created judicial review out of thin air and doesn’t exist as an enumerated power in the Constitution. So if someone was arguing that’s not a thing here that’s the basis of it, it’s very much not in the Consitution.

4945

Oh, so you aren’t phased by the idea of removing judicial review.
Cool.

4946

Frankly I don’t know jack about the constitution of Israel or even if they pretend to have one. So I can’t speak really to that.

If you’re asking me if I’d like or even love to have SCOTUS pretend made up power of judicial review removed, then yes, a thousand times yes.

4947

I don’t think you’ve thought through your position completely.

4948

And I think you’ve forgotten I’m a lawyer.

4949

I most definitely did forget that.
Do you find that view to be common in the legal profession?

4950

It’s all over the map just like any cross section of any group. From a power politics stand point it comes down to whose ox is getting gord I guess. The number of practicing attorneys in direct contact with SCOTUS is vanishingly small, so most all of them probably give it no thought at all.

My final parting shot on judicial review is this: I’m amused conservative justices fall back on the meaningless concept of strict construction to, just taking judicial review as an example, claim the Constitution is the basis of that power. A made up concept supporting a made up power is the sort of end point working backwards logic the court is famous for.

4951

I’m not a lawyer, but judicial review has been a core principle in US Constitutional law for 220 years. It seems like removing it because you don’t like the current decisions made by judges is going to have some very bad effects.

And it looks like we’ll get to see some of those in Israel.

4952

It depends on what you consider “evidence.” It’s been a while since I studied this, but much of the evidence is essentially circumstantial. Stories from various sources which may or may not be independent when you get right down to it. That is, we lack the data to tell. The written records, especially including the bible and related sources, were, as far as we can tell, first recorded in written form in the 5th century BCE, at the earliest. That’s a big gap from the events being described.

Back in the 90s (probably earlier, but that’s when I became aware of all this) or so, some really smart folks at the University of Copenhagen started asking “what do we know that we can demonstrate with contemporaneous independent data?” That’s not to say that the rest is bunk, but rather that it’s contemporary folks essentially taking our sources at their word and trusting that they are neither ill informed nor misrepresenting things. A tall order. Niels Peter Lemche and Thomas L. Thompson were the two main folks I corresponded with back then (both were very patient with younger me and were wonderful to talk to).

For example, the only contemporaneous source we have for the existence of King David (that I’m aware of) is the Tel Dan stele, and there’s debate about it’s authenticity.

Looks like Wikipedia has a bit more: Biblical minimalism - Wikipedia

tl;dr: There is a very lively debate on all of these topics.

4953

I thought exodus was a metaphor for brwaling away politically from Egyptian rule, not for literally leaving Egypt.

Although, what the Pharaohs ruled was larger than “just” the Egypt of today afaik.

4954

It seems likely that the story of Exodus is a mythological retelling/interpretation of various historical elements that the Israelites had internalized into their society and culture.

4955

One Shavuot I hosted a study session on the question of the Exodus, and we looked at this very question. My own feeling is the same as for any religious mythology: it is about faith not history. You can’t use historical scholarship to “prove” any of it, and in fact none of it needs to be “proven.” Proof in that sense is part of an entirely different epistemology. I hate it when religions, any of them, try to use historical research or scientific research or any other method derived from rational evidence-based epistemologies to prove mystical, spiritual, and ultimately intangible stuff. So misdirected.

AFAIK, there is some reason to believe people who may or may not have been the Hebrews of the Torah sojourned in Egypt for some period of time. These people may or may not have been slaves, may or may not have been disaffected, and may or may not have left in a huff. There is some reason to believe some peoples, perhaps the same ones, perhaps not, were wandering around the desert and eventually made their way into what we call Canaan (which, by the way, they invaded and were not very nice about it).

None of that matters, really. What matters is the lessons of Sinai, the principle of ethical monotheism, the idea of wrestling with challenges and oppression with the hope of both one day overcoming them and doing so in a way that makes you come out the other side a better person (or people). At the Pesach seder, “Egypt” (Mizraim) is, in my view at least, really a spiritual concept. We all have our Egypts, our bondage, our trials, and we all look for deliverance.

4956

Yeah, this is an important point. There’s a big distinction between “historical source material” and “religious text.” Very different conversations, especially when talking about the same writings.

4957

I’m going through some tough time with this.

In 2009, my family and I left Israel mainly due to financial struggles. I was working in IT and earning a decent salary, but it wasn’t enough to make ends meet without help from our parents, which we didn’t have. When my company offered me a two-year relocation to Ireland, we eagerly accepted the opportunity and never looked back.

However, aside from financial issues, I came to realize that Israel isn’t the place for me becaus of my views. I strongly believe in the separation of religion from the state. I also believe that the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is wrong, and that Palestinian independence and co-existence are the only path to peace. What I realised is that I am in a minority and that most people in Israel don’t share my beliefs.

Despite this, and my gratitude for being able to make a life in the UK (brexit and other warts notwithstanding), Israel has always felt like my true home. Recent events have left me feeling homeless. I won’t be able to go back becuase it’s never going to be the place that I remember it to be.

I spoke with my sister and a childhood friend today. My friend said that many of his friends and clients are actively seeking to leave Israel. Unfortunately, he doesn’t have that option himself.
My sister on the other hand, holds a doctorate in Plant Sciences and is a bigwig in a global GM company. She lived in the US for a couple of years before returning to Israel about a decade ago to be close to our parents and feel at home. Now she’s considering leaving again. She feels that even if the current slate of legislation is somehow defeated (which is unlikely), something has permanently changed in Israely society that can never be undone.

I’m surprised at how much this is affecting me. I’ve always thought of Israel as a nostalgic place where I grew up, but now everything has fallen apart, and I need to come to terms with it.

4958

I feel for you, truly. Israel is a special idea, even for American Jews who never go there or only visit. Yet the reality is something a lot different than we imagined it when we were young. I used to be an avid reader of anything about the IDF, Israel’s wars, movies and books like Exodus, all that. I watched, horrified, when the murders occurred during the Munich Olympics, and cheered when a few years later Israel pulled off the Entebbe raid. I vividly remember the period of time when it seemed that hardly a month went by without some heinous act of terror against Israel.

Of course, I didn’t know much about Israel, really, only the idea and the public façade. Over the years, as I got a graduate degree or two, the first being in Foreign Affairs focusing on the Middle East, I began to question a lot of what I had been told. I took Arabic from, among others, a Palestinian and a Jordanian. I had Muslim friends, and I eventually visited Jerusalem, as well as Jordan. In Jordan I visited Palestinian so-called camps, really makeshift cities, where kids threw rocks at me because, as an American, I represented to them the reason they were in that place, attending the ramshackle school I visited and going to the nearly destitute clinic I stopped by. And in Israel, at least the parts I visited, all on the West Bank or in Jerusalem, I saw the settlements, the walls, the guards. I waited in East Jerusalem for nearly an hour for a doctor, a Palestinian, to get passed through check points to attend to a colleague who was very ill, though the doctor could have been their in minutes if he hadn’t been, well, Palestinian.

The rabbi who I was closest to here retired a few years ago. He initially wanted to retire to Israel, maybe on a kibbutz. After doing research into things, he gave up on that idea. Not just because of practicalities, but because, I think, that for a guy who had been a sixties social activist, and who after retirement was still getting arrested at BLM rallies and the like, Israel seemed like, well, more like Mizraim than Canaan.

4959

That sounds really hard. I’m sorry!

4960

I don’t think you should ever give up. I’m not jewish or Israeli, but for all of this nonsense, I still believe in the idea of a jewish state, and I don’t think the Israeli people are lost. I think they’re weighed down by a nonsensical occupation that brings endless violence, and unscrupulous politicians who haven’t lived up to their responsibilities to end it.

It’s like Americans and guns. Everyone knows what they have to do to, but they just won’t.

It’s not impossible though, it’s just really hard, and I think it will require a lot more of the world than what we’re doing right now. If Israel was held to the same standards as other nations, I don’t think people like Netanyahu would be able to sell their hate so easily to the Israeli public.

As long as there are no consequences, it’s the easiest thing in the world.

But I understand the sentiment. Home is home, and having your country do wrong is like having a family member do wrong. Sometimes you just have to get away from it.