What should have israel done instead?

Did you miss the part where they rescued two hostages, during the airstrike? Hamas could the end war tomorrow, by releasing hostage and announcing a ceasefire, where is the pressure on them?. We are arguing in circles, so I’m done.

But since I started this discussion in the election 2024, and not in the Israel thread. Let me again ask the question and respond here or the election 2024 thread. What Democratic politician do you think would have a better job than Biden in handling foreign policy the last 3 years?

I know they said the bombing was a distraction to rescue two hostages. Do you think it’s morally justifiable to deliberately kill children to rescue captured soldiers?

Hamas offered this a few days ago. Netanyahu rejected it and insisted on a military “total victory”.

Any politician that would stop giving Israel bombs. That’s a very small list, but it doesn’t make it any less correct.

I mean the whole premise of “give bombs” vs “don’t give bombs” is kind of insane. The US should guarantee Israeli survival, but also make that conditional with creating a stable Levant. And the primary driver of this is compelling Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders.

To be clear, not arming Israel is the minimum. There’s quite a lot more that a superpower that claims to care about Palestinian lives could and should do.

It doesn’t matter what Hamas gives up. Israel will never stop until they’ve slaughtered at least another 20,000 children and practically enslaved/imprisoned what’s left of the populace.

If we are going to judge the Israelis based on the actions of their worst, and assume their overall motivations based on that, then surely we should do the same with the Palestinians.

How is this question even relevant? I’m not saying we should dump Joe Biden. I’m saying Joe Biden should stop supplying Israel with the ammunition Israel is using to slaughter tens of thousand of innocent Palestinian civilians. If someone else were president, I’d be saying the same thing about that person.

Yes, of course.


Obviously the Mossad are Hamas sympathizers.

While I would generally agree with that, the problem with Israel is settler attitude has become national policy.

Well, between 2016-2020, crackpot white nationalist attitude became US policy to some non trivial degree, but I don’t think it truly represented what the US was, even at the broader government level. It’s just that the crackpots got in the driver’s seat while everyone else was futzing around.

Or look at 9/11, where a much more isolated event, with far less impact on the American people, led to us toppling two countries and going to war for two decades.

I feel like the Israeli people, and even a very large chunk of their actual government, is not the monsters that this thread makes them out to be. What happened on Oct 7th caused a reaction that gave additional power to their more agressive expansionist elements, similar to how 9/11 gave power to American neo-con elements.

On top of that, I would say that it’s also unfair for most of the western world to impose our beliefs about things like use of force on Israel, without acknowledging that Israel is in a very different position than everyone else in the western world. It doesn’t mean Israel is beyond reproach, of course, but it’s easy to sit in the safety of our cities that are pretty much never under any kind of military threat, ever, and tell Israel how they should act when they have terrorist attacks and rockets fired into their population centers every day, for decades on end. They live in a different world than we do.

Again, it’s not to immunize them from criticism, but I also feel like the very real issues that Israel deals with on a daily basis are often ignored or minimized. If I try to imagine a situation where some foreign actors somehow got into the US, took a ton of hostages, and committed all kinds of attrocities on US citizens in their homes, it’s difficult to even comprehend. That’s not something that could possibly happen, right?

And if it did, what would our response be? Would we agree to a ceasefire after a month? After a year? Especially while they still held our people? Would any country? I think we are lying to ourselves if we think that would be the case.

If in some absurd parallel dimension, Hamas was operating in Canada and launching attacks on our cities, and Canada didn’t stop it? I’m pretty sure we’d solve that problem ourselves, and by solve I mean, “Kill everyone in Hamas.” And it would probably be a mess.

How do you think the U.S. would act if Canada was taking our best land and re-appropriating the best parts of our country? Wouldn’t we have tons of freedom fighters trying to take our country back like the Wolverines in Red Dawn? You bet we would. But we’d call them freedom fighters not terrorists, and little would be off the table to getting our land back, especially if tens if thousands of our children had been indiscriminately slaughtered over the past 70 years.

I’m definitely not pro-Hamas, and I’m not pro-Israel (under the right-wing regime). I’m very much, “What would we do if us Americans were under the same thumb of a vicious evil regime… and let’s be honest, that’s Netanyahu’s government. We would fight like hell. We wouldn’t wait for world pressure to force a change, since 70+ years things only got worse.

Maybe in addition to killing less civilians and literally starving and bombing people who have literally no place else to go, they could stop lying continuously. Also maybe they could demonstrate that the IDF is not just a local militia with incredibly poor discipline and a bunch of expensive western supplied toys.

I sure hope I wouldn’t be okay with my military leveling Toronto to make this happen. Hell, I’d probably even be upset if they leveled Montreal. I also really hope I wouldn’t start seeing Canadians as subhuman or refer to them as animals regardless of how horrendous their behavior had been. But you’re right, I’m not in that position so I don’t know how I’d actually react

But Jeff is also right, if I apply the same “put myself into their shoes” situation, I can see how as a Palestinian it would be tempting to join Hamas or the like. If you feel like your under the thumb of an oppressive foreign power, you’ll justify a lot of actions to fight that.

So yeah, I can see both sides point of views of how they justify horrendous and literally atrocious behavior. But the advantage we have of not being directly involved is that we can separate ourselves from that stuff and see that both terrorism/kidnapping and indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas are unacceptable and not remotely actually justifiable.

Jesus Christ

It was not long after this that the young man in the white PPE arrived. The young man was Jamal Abu Al-Ola, according to El Helou. He had been at the hospital earlier, but the Israeli military had subsequently seized and detained him, and put his hands in what appears to be black, plastic zip-tie cuffs.

After Abu Al-Ola passed along the evacuation order, his mother, who was also sheltering at the hospital, pleaded with him to not go back out, but her son said he had to. “He said, ‘I’ve been threatened, I have to leave the hospital or it’s going to put all the civilians in danger,’” El Helou recalled.

Abu Al-Ola was killed shortly after walking out of the hospital. According to El Helou, he was shot by an Israeli soldier three times in his chest and abdomen while still inside the gates of the hospital. Al Serr, the Nasser Hospital doctor, confirmed the account of Abu Al-Ola being killed as he left the hospital. El Helou later got footage of Abu Al-Ola’s corpse in a body bag, still robed in his PPE.

Do you think hamas are freedom fighters? Islamic Jihad? Were the acts we saw on October 7th “freedom fighting”?

What about when Hamas kills tons of Palestinians, if they don’t support their rule?

What about the backwards, barbaric Islamic fundamentalism, and systemic oppression of women and the LGBTQ community? The types of things that we routinely condemn from the right wing in our own country, but many orders of magnitude worse?

Would you rather live under Hamas? Are they better than Netanyahu? I feel like the answer is that they are obviously worse. If you could wave a magic wand and flip the military power disparity, such that hamas now had the same level of advantage over the Israelis, that the Israelis currently have over them, we wouldn’t be discussing whether Hamas might be committing genocide. They would have already done so, ages ago. They don’t accidentally kill people as collateral damage, they do so on purpose, and their body count is only limited by their lack of military prowess and materiel.

And we can say, “well of course we don’t support Hamas,” but Hamas is who runs Gaza. That’s their government. And they are horrific.

We just give them a pass, because “well obviously they’re terrible, we can’t do anything about that.”

Maybe you wouldn’t be. But you don’t really know, because you have always lived in a totally safe environment, where there was never any real threat of anything.

And if we are going to compare Hamas to freedom fighters, and justify palestinean support of them because of the great oppression Israel lays upon the palestineans (who are of course blameless), then I feel that opens up Pandora’s box for explaining and justifying support for the other side.

If we are going to look at the videos posted by individual IDF soldiers and use them to condemn Israel as a whole, then we should do the same to the palestineans, and judge them one the basis of the videos they posted on telegram of their actions on October 7th, right?

But of course we don’t. Because Hamas operates in two separate forms simultaneously, and we don’t combine them in our minds. They are the monsters who conduct terrorist activities and crimes against humanity on a routine basis, while simultaneously being the government (actually democratically elected at one point) of a people who we attach zero responsibility to for the actions of that government.

The IDF soldiers who are committing warcrimes (and posting about it on TikTok and Telegram!) are explicitly not being punished or even reined in by their leadership.

WTF do you think is going to happen.

And hamas actually organized their far more horrific footage, and released it for propaganda purposes.

Those things weren’t just unpunished infractions by individuals, they were literally the orders, and the recording and release of the footage was part of their actual plan.

I think perhaps part of the thing that makes me feel bad, is that we just ignore those actions and hand wave them away as “we all know hamas is bad, there’s nothing we can do about it!” And then all we talk about is the bad stuff that we see from Israel.

And to be clear, I think we do need to talk about the bad stuff by Israel… But looking at this thread, one would think that the attrocities were completely one sided.

The organization? No. Most of the participants? Yes.

So, the people who murdered all those folks at the music festival were freedom fighters? The folks who murdered children and raped women were freedom fighters? Like that guy who filmed himself shooting a 10 year old girl in her kitchen, after talking to her, was a freedom fighter?

What about the Hamas folks who threw tons of palestineans off of rooftops? What about the ones who killed and tortured Palestinians for being gay? That stuff wasn’t about Israel at all. That was just them imposing brutal, theocratic autocracy.

I feel like Red Dawn would have been a much different movie if instead of fighting against armed Soviet occupiers, Patrick Swayze was just killing kids and raping women.

He did say “most” of the participants. I have no personal opinion on this, just pointing out what he said doesn’t necessarily contradict condemnation of everything you wrote.