What should have israel done instead?

[Tracy_Baker]

You’re arguing with a tombstone, ydejin.

[Dejin]

You’re arguing with a tombstone, ydejin.

Wow. Clearly I need to keep up with the Bananas and Nuts thread! Thanks for letting me know Tracy.

[Dejin]

I’d probably have attacked the armies, but only after the peace talks failed, and only then with a limited remit. The idea of taking the land and settling it with hundreds of thousands of people, while restricting the basic human rights of the occupied, would be abhorrent to me.

Personally I’m fine with Israel maintaining a military presence in the West Bank until such time as they are satisfied that it is no longer needed. It’s the settlements that are complete bullshit. The settlements are also one of the reasons why there are so many restrictions on Palestinians. No settlements, means no settler-only roads, far fewer checkpoints, more freedom for the Palestinians. No bullying of Palestinians by right-winger settlers.

Just moving a couple of settlements from Gaza caused huge rifts in Israeli society. Support went from just over 50% in favour of removing those settlements to about 80% against. That’s just two settlements in Gaza. Imagine removing the hundreds from what is considered holy land by many of the settlers living on it.

Also Israeli policies of subsidizing housing in settlements is changing the settlements’ demographics in ways which will make it increasingly difficult to remove the settlements:

At one point, Shas—like some of its Ashkenazi ultra-Orthodox counterparts—was open to dismantling settlements. In recent years, however, ultra-Orthodox Israelis, anxious to find housing for their large families, have increasingly moved to the West Bank, where thanks to government subsidies it is far cheaper to live. Not coincidentally, their political parties have swung hard against territorial compromise.

(source)

[Shiroko]

But it was a small dismantlement, and public support collapsed afterwards, in the face of harrowing images of Jews being forced from their homes by Jewish soldiers, and the quarter of a million protesters who came out in Jerusalem. After that support was down to about 20%, which is pretty much just the Arabs. I think public opinion has recovered since, but the West Bank will be a much tougher assignment than Gaza.

There were about 8000 settlers in the 2005 withdrawal. There are over 300,000 settlers in the West Bank outside of Jerusalem.

What is “public support”? A few surveys? This really doesn’t count for anything. Kadima won the next election!
Either public support is measured by the media is BS or the population is dumb and will vote against their real intentions. In any case, this points that it is possible to withdraw from the west bank. Definitely if it can be done in phases (I assume it will be).

[Tim_Partlett]

Elections are not about single issues. And Kadima only won 22% of the vote.

[Shiroko]

A little more than 22 (29 out of 120).
Which is quite a lot in Israel (i.e. not the UK where building a coalition is a rare thing)
Also, it just shows the population has no problem supporting such parties.

Even the current structure of the Knesset has more than 50% of it supporting removal of settlements as part of an agreement. (Lieberman supports that as well, though he wants to get rid of Israeli Arabs while at it as well)

[Tim_Partlett]

Like an election isn’t a referendum on a single policy, the number of seats isn’t equal to the number of votes… They got 29 seats, but only 22% of the vote.

It seems that support for disengagement has picked up again recently, but it did collapse after the settlements were dismantled.

About 250,000 people, about 5% of the Jewish population, turned out in the capital to protest it. Britain’s most unpopular policy, the Poll Tax, drew less protesters than the disengagement plan. And 5% of British people protesting would be 3 million people…

And that’s with just 8000 settlers. There’s 300,000 more in the West Bank, and that’s not even counting East Jerusalem.

[Shiroko]

And? So they will protest. Hadn’t stopped it before.

The issue with actually doing it is trust between the sides. But it’s definitely possible.

(BTW 250,000 people in Israel does not equal 3 million in London. It’s a much smaller state, one hour drive for most people tops)

[Tim_Partlett]

Britain is very densely populated. England is even more densely populated than Israel. Take just the English population and the equivalent protest would be 2.5. England is also small. Pretty much everywhere is within an hour or two of London.

If a protest of a quarter of a million people is a big deal in Britain, it must signify something even more serious in Israel.

[Dan_Lawrence]

Looks almost certain now that the flotilla murders are going to lead to Israel partially lifting the blockade:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/16/israel-agreement-likely-gaza-blockade

The devil will be in the details of the allowed goods and particularly how much construction material they allow into Gaza to rebuild people’s homes.

At least those people won’t have died entirely in vain.

[marxeil]

But it was a small dismantlement, and public support collapsed afterwards, in the face of harrowing images of Jews being forced from their homes by Jewish soldiers, and the quarter of a million protesters who came out in Jerusalem. After that support was down to about 20%, which is pretty much just the Arabs. I think public opinion has recovered since, but the West Bank will be a much tougher assignment than Gaza.

There were about 8000 settlers in the 2005 withdrawal. There are over 300,000 settlers in the West Bank outside of Jerusalem.

Public support collapsed because shortly after the evacuation, Hamas started bombing the neighboring settlements (see very clever comic a few pages back). After 4 years of bombings support for further evacuations declined significantly.
kadima’s results in the following are considered pretty good and would have been better if not for the person who replaced Sharon. Its true that there was a lot of negative reaction to the dismantlement, but there was at the time an opposing quieter camp all for more of it in the west bank. The bombing turned a lot of people against any more evacuations. As Shiroko said - any shred of trust was gone.

And for anyone claiming that the bombing were not a big deal because few people were actually killed or hurt - just imagine that every day when you leave home, the neighbor next door is standing behind his fence and he is throwing stones at you and your kids. he’s a bad shot and usually misses you.
Would you be OK with that?

[Matthew_Gallant]

[marxeil]

[marxeil]

[Kurdel]

This just in, both sides have a lot of stupid people. Details at 11.

[marxeil]

This just in, both sides have a lot of stupid people. Details at 11.

So does this forum.

[Kalle]

And for anyone claiming that the bombing were not a big deal because few people were actually killed or hurt - just imagine that every day when you leave home, the neighbor next door is standing behind his fence and he is throwing stones at you and your kids. he’s a bad shot and usually misses you.
Would you be OK with that?

Throwing stones like the Jewish settlers in Hebron throw stones at the Palestinians? Literally throwing stones at their neighbours while being guarded by the military. For years and years and years. Like that, you mean?

[Kurdel]

So does this forum.

If you don’t agree with people that doesn’t make them stupid. Conversely, you have the same opinions as really stupid people, but you aren’t stupid.

[Mike_O_Malley]

Are they having fun with that woman or hazing her? I can’t tell.

[Kurdel]

Are they having fun with that woman or hazing her? I can’t tell.

The second guy from the right looks really evil though.