What should have israel done instead?

[Mike_O_Malley]

Yeah, that was my thought as well. An in-your-face vibe. The third guy from the left seems fun, and it looks like they’re clapping and singing, so…

I dunno.

[marxeil]

If you don’t agree with people that doesn’t make them stupid. Conversely, you have the same opinions as really stupid people, but you aren’t stupid.

I wasn’t referring to you or to others who express their opinions. I was referring to the images.

Throwing stones like the Jewish settlers in Hebron throw stones at the Palestinians? Literally throwing stones at their neighbours while being guarded by the military. For years and years and years. Like that, you mean?

I’m not defending the west bank / gaza settlers. If it was up to me they’ed been evicted a long time ago. There are however 2 sides to the story, something which some are not so willing to accept.

[Jag]

Are they having fun with that woman or hazing her? I can’t tell.

My guess is they are burying her alive. Probably for being raped a gang of men under the Sharia “she asked for it” law.

Edit: The picture properties says sharia and stoning. I guess they bury her halfway so she doesn’t flop around before she dies.

[Mike_O_Malley]

My guess is they are burying her alive. Probably for being raped a gang of men under the Sharia “she asked for it” law.

Edit: The picture properties says sharia and stoning. I guess they bury her halfway so she doesn’t flop around before she dies.

That’s what they did in “The Stoning of Soraya M”.

[Dan_Theman]

Change can be good.

For the link-impaired, here’s a snippet:
[I]

Tony Blair, envoy for the Middle East Quartet – the U.S., Russia, the European Union and the United Nations – said in a statement Israel would publish a list of weapons and war items not permitted into Gaza rather than those permitted, and allow full access of civilian goods.

[/I]

[Kalle]

Israel still retains the right to define what constitutes “military items” so I don’t expect the citizens of Gaza will be able to rebuild their homes anytime soon.

But hey, atleast it’s some kind of progress.

[Calistas]

I am on the bus pondering just what would Israel have to do to lose it’s BFF status with the US? New Zealand banned any US ship that wouldn’t declare whether it was carrying nuclear weapons way back and that had us in the naughty corner for a while. But what about Israel?

Short of quite heinous acts I can think of nothing. That is kind of sad, I think.

[John_Many_Jars]

I am on the bus pondering just what would Israel have to do to lose it’s BFF status with the US? New Zealand banned any US ship that wouldn’t declare whether it was carrying nuclear weapons way back and that had us in the naughty corner for a while. But what about Israel?

Short of quite heinous acts I can think of nothing. That is kind of sad, I think.

It’s sadder still to those of us who see cars with FREE JONATHAN POLLARD bumper stickers.

[Dejin]

Short of quite heinous acts I can think of nothing. That is kind of sad, I think.

Israel has committed some quite heinous acts. The Gaza War comes to mind immediately. There’s also the US Liberty incident in which Israel attacked a US Navy ship and killed 33 US servicemen and one civilian. Instead of thoroughly investigating the incident, it was whitewashed. Recent declassified evidence strongly suggests that there was a coverup, and that Israel deliberately attacked the ship in spite of the fact that they knew it was a US Navy ship. The Chicago Tribune wrote an article on it a while back.

Internal White House documents obtained from the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library show that the Israelis’ explanation of how the mistake had occurred was not believed.

Except for McNamara, most senior administration officials from Secretary of State Dean Rusk on down privately agreed with Johnson’s intelligence adviser, Clark Clifford, who was quoted in minutes of a National Security Council staff meeting as saying it was “inconceivable” that the attack had been a case of mistaken identity.

The attack “couldn’t be anything else but deliberate,” the NSA’s director, Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, later told Congress.

“I don’t think you’ll find many people at NSA who believe it was accidental,” Benson Buffham, a former deputy NSA director, said in an interview.

[The Israelis attacked the] Liberty had been hit repeatedly by machine guns, 30 mm cannon and napalm from the Israelis’ French-built Mirage and Mystere fighter-bombers, the controller directing the attack asked his chief in Tel Aviv to which country the target vessel belonged.

“Apparently American,” the chief controller replied.

Fourteen minutes later the Liberty was struck amidships by a torpedo from an Israeli boat, killing 26 of the 100 or so NSA technicians and specialists in Russian and Arabic who were working in restricted compartments below the ship’s waterline.

There’s a lot more evidence that the attack was deliberate in the Chicago Tribune article.

[Dejin]

While I can’t think of any single acts which could cause Israel to lose US support, I think if they continue on their present course, they will find that their support slowly erodes away. There have been a number of articles on how support for Israel among younger non-Orthodox Jews has been dropping. Here’s an example from Peter Beinart in the New York Review of Books:

In recent years, several studies have revealed, in the words of Steven Cohen of Hebrew Union College and Ari Kelman of the University of California at Davis, that “non-Orthodox younger Jews, on the whole, feel much less attached to Israel than their elders,” with many professing “a near-total absence of positive feelings.”

Most of the students, in other words, were liberals, broadly defined. They had imbibed some of the defining values of American Jewish political culture: a belief in open debate, a skepticism about military force, a commitment to human rights. And in their innocence, they did not realize that they were supposed to shed those values when it came to Israel.

…

For several decades, the Jewish establishment has asked American Jews to check their liberalism at Zionism’s door, and now, to their horror, they are finding that many young Jews have checked their Zionism instead.

[Calistas]

I am sure the hordes of evangelicals will keep Israel happily cuddled by US policy makers!

[Jag]

Non Israeli Jews can disagree with Israels policies, but still support the country. Just because people hated Bush/Cheney, didn’t make them any less supportive of the US. Actually it probably made them more. The concept of a country that exists as a safe haven for Jews is probably a concept that ydejin just can’t (or doesn’t want to) grasp.

As far as heinous acts, Israel has been at war for over 60 years. A war that was declared on them. Considering some of the atrocities the US and numerous other countries have committed in much shorter timespans during warfare, it is pretty amazing they aren’t more heavy handed.

[John_Many_Jars]

Oy vey.

[Dan_Theman]

Non Israeli Jews can disagree with Israels policies, but still support the country. Just because people hated Bush/Cheney, didn’t make them any less supportive of the US. Actually it probably made them more. The concept of a country that exists as a safe haven for Jews is probably a concept that ydejin just can’t (or doesn’t want to) grasp.

As far as heinous acts, Israel has been at war for over 60 years. A war that was declared on them. Considering some of the atrocities the US and numerous other countries have committed in much shorter timespans during warfare, it is pretty amazing they aren’t more heavy handed.

Well put.

[Kalle]

The concept of a country that exists as a safe haven for Jews is probably a concept that ydejin just can’t (or doesn’t want to) grasp.

While we’re tossing around strawmen, the concept of not condoning the ethnic cleansing or apartheid of millions of Palestinians is probably a concept you just can’t seem to grasp.

As far as heinous acts, Israel has been at war for over 60 years. A war that was declared on them.

It’s no longer 1948, Israel is not the persecuted victim in this conflict today and Israel has been playing the agressor for 30 years now. The victim card is played out. Israel can still try to hold the past hostage for political purposes but it is a perpetually weakening position and the people who are suffering the most, today, are not impressed.

[Jag]

While we’re tossing around strawmen, the concept of not condoning the ethnic cleansing or apartheid of millions of Palestinians is probably a concept you just can’t seem to grasp.

Ethnic cleansing? Care to back that up with a non-biased source or does it just sound good?

It’s no longer 1948, Israel is not the persecuted victim in this conflict today and Israel has been playing the agressor for 30 years now. The victim card is played out. Israel can still try to hold the past hostage for political purposes but it is a perpetually weakening position and the people who are suffering the most, today, are not impressed.

Who the hell said they were the victim? It’s a fucking state of war.

[Flowers]

Israel, Jag. Israel said that they were the victim. Repeatedly. Loudly. In the news and on television. In multiple languages. If you missed that then maybe you are not competent to weigh in on this issue.

[Dan_Theman]

Israel, Jag. Israel said that they were the victim. Repeatedly. Loudly. In the news and on television. In multiple languages. If you missed that then maybe you are not competent to weigh in on this issue.

First off, believe it or not, sometimes there is more than one victim. Quite often that’s because there’s more than one wrong committed in relation to a particular event, making the tally of victims in a situation much larger.
Could Israel be a victim? Absolutely. A victim of the blockade? No. The most compelling or sympathetic victim? No, but that doesn’t mean their suffering gets invalidated - it just takes a back seat.

Second and more to the point, Jag didn’t say they were the victim (or even a victim) and I thought the debate here was with eachother, not the mouthpieces of foreign nations. Politicians often say stupid things for what turn out to be complicated reasons. For instance, Netanyahu said Israel was the victim of “an international hypocrisy attack.” That may be the case, but why say it when the court of public opinion was so stacked against him? Someone could have calculated that the statement would have strengthened his hold on internal politics and greased the runway to make later concessions (such as the easing of the embargo) while simultaneously not looking weak to his constituents. Or … he could have been an idiot. The thing is, we shouldn’t be responsible for arguing on behalf of another government’s thought process - just arguing on behalf of our own can be hard enough, lol.

[Jag]

Israel, Jag. Israel said that they were the victim. Repeatedly. Loudly. In the news and on television. In multiple languages. If you missed that then maybe you are not competent to weigh in on this issue.

Victim has multiple meanings. I was referring to Israel claiming it was still a victim of the 1948 war. Being a victim can also mean you have been tricked or duped.

[Kalle]

Ethnic cleansing? Care to back that up with a non-biased source or does it just sound good?

There’s 1948. That’s the historical one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

And judging by right-wing Israeli politicians there seem to be political support for an encore. Not saying it’s going to happen tomorrow but it is an option on the table if the situation deteriorates.