Kalle
1761
Really? I read a news story in my paper that said that the EU called for Iran to call off the stoning of a woman convicted of adultery as recently as two weeks ago. Apparantly stoning of this particular woman is now off the table, but there was no mention of any kind of moratorium and if there was no imminent danger of the womans sentance being executed I don’t see why a diplomatic effort was made on her behalf.
As for the Iranian parliament I still have last years presidential election fraud and accompanying riots and brutal repression in mind. You’ll have to forgive me if I’m sceptical to the idea of reform from within the Iranian political system.
But I think I’ve derailed this topic enough.
Kalle
1762
Hah, fools.
Somewhere in the US an illegal immigrant just got laid after telling a woman his name was Scott Jennings.
The point would be, this is what happens when you run theocratic government - you do stupid shit to people for entirely arbitrary reasons. Like stoning somebody to death for not having had their coitus certified in advance by the Metaphysical Screwing Authority, or like jailing somebody for attempting to get his leg over on the false pretense of Judaism, which, given my exposure to Woody Allen cinema, seems like the absolute opposite of what would happen anywhere else in the world, but whatever.
For the record, as a person who doesn’t get laid so much (who’d a thought, right?), lying to acquire sex certainly does seem like something you could theoretically punish somebody for. Severely. Of course, I also don’t see the problem with paying for sex, so in my crazy brains, with only what’s in the thread, it seems sort of like this guy was defrauding the Denny’s with a fake driver’s license. I’m not sure how to make sense of a woman whose only standard for screwing is “You gotta be Jewish,” though, so I assume that I’m missing some context here.
Tim: I guess you were right after all.
I’m pretty sure it’s a case of argument by misdirection. There is no way to remove the racial implications from this case and, apparently, Israel’s approach to the subject generally.
Kareem
1765
There are stoning sentences still being handed down since it remains a part of the penal code, but I think none have been carried out since 2007 or 2008. At any rate:
Amnesty International is aware of at least 10 other people (seven women and three men) under sentence of stoning and believes there are likely to be others. Last year, at least three people sentenced to death by stoning were in fact executed by hanging.
“Any form of state killing is unacceptable and inhumane, and Iran must now give assurances that Sakineh - along with the numerous other prisoners on death row in Iran - will not be killed by any means.”
Thursday’s statement said that stoning as a punishment has now been removed from a new draft of Iran’s Penal Code, which is currently under review by Iran’s parliament and is yet to be ratified.
However, it remains to be seen if this decision has been ratified and if it will be implemented.
Obviously execution for adultery is not really a huge improvement, but there you go. My point, ultimately, was that execution for adultery is not in the Quran.
Kareem
1766
Except any regime can impose arbitrary rules without being a theocratic government. You don’t have to base your dictatorship on a mandate from heaven. And in this case the rule does not even enjoy strong theological support since it has no basis in scripture.
Kareem
1767
In which case I’ve been thoroughly trolled. Good job Jag!
Jag
1768
No, I don’t know that it’s “patently false” that it only happens in Saudi Arabia, but feel free to prove me wrong.
Sentences to stoning or stonings without a sentence were reported within the last years from Afghanistan, Nigeria, Iran, Pakistan, Sudan, Saudi-Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. Lashing and amputations are even more widespread.
International Society for Human Rights
Tim, the point of showing prior, non-racial rape convictions under the same law is proof that the law itself was not racial, although it was applied in a racial manner in this case.
Kareem
1769
My “patently false” comment was aimed at your statement that in a Muslim country he would be stoned to death, and your second statement that in a country governed by Shariah he would be stoned to death, both of which are false since very few Muslim countries carry out legal stonings and at any rate it is not a punishment that is in the Quran.
Also I’m disinclined to believe that actual stonings occurred in the countries you listed in the last couple of years except for Saudi Arabia. I can see how stoning sentences may still be handed down since, as I mentioned earlier, they are part of the penal code, but they go to great lengths to avoid carrying out the actual stoning sentence. In UAE courts for example (I was briefly involved in covering them), a judge will sometimes actively prod a defendant who admitted to adultery to retract their statement (you need a confession or four witnesses of the act to carry out a Shariah-based punishment related to sex) and they would do that. The last death sentence to be carried out in the UAE was in 2008. So I’m distrustful of that statement. Questions over how many are sentences and how many are actual executions, how many were legally sanctioned, etc.
Kareem
1770
Anyway I am thoroughly tired of derailing away from the actively racist rape sentence. My apologies.
Seriously you made this sounds racist? I have been having a discussion in an Israeli forum about it which is 9 pages long and not at one point no one seemed or to care about race issue in it.
The question here is if fraud is a legitimate way to have sex with a women or not, and to what degree. We probably all agree this is immoral. Some of us think it should be illegal to some extent. But most tend to think this is a bit ridicules and more of a problem of women stupidity.
Anyway turns out it’s part of the law (And the law might be stupid, but not racist) and that previous cases have been made. But the fact that Jews are found guilty of rape with the same law doesn’t add up with Kareem’s already firm narrative of what’s life in Israel like.
A man who rape a woman -
(1) Without free consent, causing physical suffering, the use of other means of pressure or threat of one of these, no matter if these were made to the woman or to others;
(2) With the consent of the woman fraudulently obtained about personal characteristics or nature of the act making;
…
Two side notes:
- Seemingly, from discussions it seems to go like this: Man say it’s stupid, woman seem to find it reasonable.
- It’s amazing how little words I had to fix in google translate’s translation of the law to reach decent English.
Kalle
1772
It’s not the law itself that is racist, it’s how it’s applied. Which, in this case, happens to fall into the all-to-common pattern of Israeli discrimination against arabs.
Why bother with “Scott Jennings” when you can tell her you’re “Jesus.”
Out of ignorance, are Israeli-Palestinian men typically circumcised? If not, wouldn’t that be an indicator if he’s a “Daniel” or not?
There’s no such-pattern in the justice system which is very left-winged in Israel. I know it seems this huge one-case survey really portrays the entire system. In fact, it’s so good that none of us either read the verdict itself, only the headline which says “Arab lies to women, found rapist” when in fact the trial was in a district court (One level before supreme) by 3 judges who found him guilty synonymously. And talk in the verdict about the man exact lies to the woman in order to just have sex with her, evidence of his rational, past and the physiological damage to the woman which testifies her to being a rape victim.
I might as well take the next US court ruling of a black man doing something to a white guy and post the same headline there. But it’s so much more sexy to blame Israel nowadays in everything.
Lum
1776
DAMN THOSE MEX-I-CANS, THAT WOMAN WAS MINE!
Well I learned something today…
Turns out circumcision is common for Islam at the least. And I won’t be surprised if Christian Arabs in Israel go through it as well in the hospital (similar to the US if I’m correct)
In a Muslim country?
It’s not racism when you use such a broad brush on an entire religion, but I don’t know the right word, so it’ll have to do.
In Iran, in some backwater Algerian village perhaps… but any Muslim country. Really?!
An anyway the “the other side sucks more”-argument isn’t really a defense for Israels racist use of the law.
Edit: This thread moves fast and my point has already been made several times.
But I love to see one apologist going "hey look at what them Arabs are doing " and the other “Racist? Whatever made you say that. Can’t we all agree that lying to get laid is really bad”
I’m amazed at Shiroko justifying this. I’m happy to accept that this is a one-off, at least without evidence to the contrary, but attempting to defend the verdict as sensible is insane to me. Even in the unlikely even that the verdict isn’t racially biased, it’s at the very least a racially motivated verdict. Even if Jews would be convicted for doing the same, how can you defend a law that could convict a black man of rape for lightening his skin and not telling his white date that he’s actually black?
idrisz
1780
past and the physiological damage to the woman which testifies her to being a rape victim.
she will never wash the terrorist cum-stain out of her vagina!!!
